Lie Detector (Part Two)

I'm Ben Nadafafri, host of the history show The Last Archive, and I want to tell you about a new series we're running in our feed. It's called The Deadline. Six essays written and read by Jill Lepore, the New Yorker writer, American historian, and founding host of our show. These are incredible essays on everything from the history of cryogenics to the Silicon Valley gospel of disruption. And at the end of each essay, I interview Jill about her craft as a writer.

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Hello? George? Yeah, this is Patrick. Yes, this is Patrick. Yeah, I'm about to test you.

when you were in a position to make a difference and an impact in these people's lives, you did not. And to this day, they have never seen the evidence. But the trial judge, seeing the evidence, reacted viscerally to it, felt that it was not simply concerning, but a basis to grant a new trial. Yeah, take me to court. Say that I have molested her daughter.

they never saw the light of day. What in the hell is in those records?

I'm Patrick Kuralchi. And I'm Adriana Cortez.

And this is Red Pilled America, a storytelling show.

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In the case of George, finding evidence of him as a violent man was what we began to search for. Aside from the testimony of Marion and her mother, Wanda, no evidence was presented throughout the course of the trial that showed a past history of George Gage being violent. No prior conviction was submitted as evidence. There were no outside witnesses to any physical abuse. There were no contemporaneous medical records or police reports, not even a diary or third party that was offered to show some indication of this behavior.

decades ago. But eventually we connected with a few friends of George's. Well, I met George through a member of our church. That's Richard Brinkerhoff, a Los Angeles area resident.

And George was interested in finding out about our religion and our beliefs. And so Bill, who is the other member, he started teaching him our beliefs at his home in Glendale.

Richard met George through a lifelong friend of his named Bill Collister. George came into Bill's life sometime in 1995 or 1996, shortly after Wanda and her kids left George behind in California. Okay, well, he was living in Palmdale, and there's where we belong to a church that leads into hunger. That's Bill Collister. Our phone connection was poor, so sorry about the audio quality.

up through the end of 1998.. That Christmas, Bill asked George to come over for dinner at his home.

in Glendale. We asked George, and he came to Christmas dinner in Glendale. We were living in Glendale,

and he came. They shared the holiday together. Then, a few days after that, in the early part of January, Bill called George to see how he was doing. when his daughter, Delmaude, answered the phone and said George was in jail. I was just shocked.

guilty of sexually assaulting Marion. They believe the charges were concocted by Marion.

and her mother, Wanda. He got involved with another woman, and this other woman actually had his child, and of course she found out about it. She being Wanda. And so we feel that she made this whole thing up out of vindictiveness, and she wanted to get back at him for doing what he did. You might say, well, it wasn't a very wise thing that he did, but you know, we all do things that may be not very wise, but I think he's an upstanding person.

different perspective on George than the one the state presented during the trial. But George hadn't come into their life until after Wanda and the kids left him in California. We wanted to get a picture of George's personality going back decades before his arrest. We thought there was likely no one better than Del Maude, the daughter George had in the British West Indies when he was 21 years old.

So we went on a hunt for her. We scoured through Facebook and other internet platforms, searching for any hint of her whereabouts. We knew she lived in Massachusetts when George was arrested, so we combed listings in that area to find any sign of her. Then we found a phone number of someone that we thought might be Del Maude. I thought it was a long shot, but I gave the number a call and left a message.

Hi, I'm Patrick. This is Del Maude. I'm returning your call about George.

We were about to hear about George Gage from someone that's known him for 60 years.

I'm Ben Nadafafri, host of the history podcast, The Last Archive, and I want to tell you about a new series we're running in our feed. It's called The Deadline, and it features six essays written and read by Jill Lepore, the New Yorker writer, American historian, and founding host of our show. These are incredible essays on everything from the history of cryogenics to the Silicon Valley gospel of disruption. And at the end of each essay, I interviewed Jill about her craft as a writer and how she's thinking about the themes of these essays. now.

My name is Michael Wolff, and I'm the host of Fire and Fury, the podcast. Not too long ago, I saw Donald Trump, and he shouted, hey, Michael, I made you rich. And the truth is, my three books about Trump, they have sold a lot of copies. It all started eight years ago. I found myself in Donald Trump's Beverly Hills home, sharing Haagen-Dazs ice cream with him.

us to do this unbelievably reliably, in the storms, no matter what, hundreds of times a day.

How do you turn a wild dream about a new kind of biology into a $10 billion company?

We didn't have a particular technology. We didn't have a way of making money.

It was a great way to start a company. I highly recommend it.

How do you sell millions of dollars worth of dog ramps for wiener dogs in the middle of a pandemic?

We're working with 400 influencers, and the majority of them are actually not a person,

but it's actually a dog. I can tell you right now, the dog ramp guy has some very interesting problems. Listen to What's Your Problem? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back to Red Pilled America. So we'd spoken to two of George Gage's Bible study friends, but we wanted to get a feel for his life. dating back to the West Indy days. I'd searched for his daughter, DelMod, and found a phone number that appeared to be hers. So I called it and left a message.

I'm his first child. He had me when he was 21.. So George and DelMod's mom never married.

The two met while George was working on the island of Montserrat,

a British territory in the Caribbean. Yeah, and then he moved to St. Croix, which is a.

U.S. Virgin Islands. When George moved islands for work, DelMod was primarily raised by her mother. But about at age 15, she followed her dad to the Virgin Island of St. Croix.

And I lived with him there for like three years during high school.

Being a citizen of the British West Indies means you're a British subject. DelMod says most people from her area believe the U.S. provides more of an opportunity than in her home country. So she moved in with her dad in St. Croix to attend an American high school.

I mean, back then it was basically, I'm going to school, he's working, and sometimes it depends on his schedule. Sometimes we didn't even, we saw each other just at night because of how he, you know, how his schedule was with the work. But he was always hard working. He worked, all the time. He was a hard working person, an electrician by trade.

company in the Virgin Islands. The Caribbean islands are a unique place. There are 26 different countries throughout the area, bringing a wide array of cultures to anyone that wants to island hop. DelMod remembers going with her father to meet some of his friends around the islands.

So we'd go visit other people from Montserrat, which is where we are from. But there were other groups of other islands. There were groups of people from other countries, like Antigua, Trinidad. And we used to visit, you know, you'd try to visit with some of his friends and stuff like that.

When the oil refinery work began to slow down in St. Croix in 1976, George made the move to.

the Lone Star State in search of work and a better life. He worked for Hess Oil in St. Croix. And I think the refinery, I'm not sure, it didn't close down, but it slowed down. So there wasn't a lot of work.

DelMod lived with George in Texas for about three years while she attended college in the area. Then, about a year after George met Marion's mother, Wanda, DelMod moved to Massachusetts. She only met Wanda and the kids a few times.

As we mentioned earlier, George Gage's first trial ended in a hung jury. During his second trial, Prosecutor Estes suggested George's upbringing in the British Virgin Islands somehow bred him to be violent. I asked DelMod about the culture in the British West Indies to gauge if there was any validity to the state's suggestion.

There's no difference. You work, you go to school, you do everything they do. here in America. It's the same thing. The standard of living might not be as high, but I think people are happy.

I also asked DelMod if she'd ever seen or experienced George being physically violent.

No. I remember him saying he'll never hit a child because he doesn't believe in that.

Throughout the trial, Prosecutor Estes made a big point of George's disciplining of Marion and her brother. During George's evaluation by the California state-appointed psychiatrist, he was asked if he'd ever enacted, quote, corporal punishment on the kids. He responded no. But later, in sworn statements, George admitted to using a belt on Marion and her younger brother on two occasions to discipline them. Prosecutor Estes used this seeming contradiction to paint George as not only prone to violence, but branded him a proven liar as well.

An example of this played out early in the trial, and just a warning that some of this is disturbing to hear. By the time of trial, Marion claimed that George was raping her the entire time that they lived in California, growing to as much as twice a day. But her initial report to the police was drastically different.

That's Tony Farmani, George Gage's court of appeals attorney.

I wasn't at the trial and I didn't watch her while she testified, but the trial judge did. And the trial judge made some findings that don't seem consistent with Wanda being a battered woman. And, in fact, what the judge saw from Wanda's demeanor and also found from her testimony was that she purposefully ran up Gage's credit card to basically get back at him, and that she expected him to pay her for various damages that she thought she was entitled to having to do with money that they had commingled. So she didn't seem to be acting like somebody who was afraid.

of her ex-husband. Judge Koppel's doubts were about to burst into the trial. After the jury found George guilty, Marion and her family were each asked to submit something that's called a victim's impact statement. This is where the victim explains in writing how the newly convicted criminal negatively impacted their lives. The judge is supposed to take these statements into consideration in sentencing.

And the judges in the Ninth Circuit were very quick. Judge Tashima was very quick to point out that there's a constitutional case, Davis v. Alaska, that says, when a case comes down to witness credibility and there is evidence that the witness might not be telling the truth or has problems telling the truth, that evidence has to be turned over and can be used in cross-examination. So while there are, to some degree, some shields for certain kinds of alleged victims, the Constitution always trumps those statutes, and in fact, it wasn't even a close call. He had to turn it over.

Esteves should have provided them during the trial, but he didn't. It took Judge Koppel's sentencing phase demand for him to finally hand it over. But when he released them to Judge Koppel, he did so in camera, which means outside of the view of George's lawyers. And what Judge Koppel saw, in her mind, changed everything.

I'm Ben Adafafri, host of the history podcast, The Last Archive, and I want to tell you about a new series running in our feed. It's called The Deadline, and it features six essays written and read by Jill Lepore, the New Yorker writer, American historian, and founding host of our show. These are incredible essays on everything from the history of cryogenics to the Silicon Valley gospel of disruption. And at the end of each essay, I interviewed Jill about her craft as a and how she's thinking about the themes of these essays. now.

This is a crazy origin story. I don't think I've ever told this before.

I really loved having these conversations with Jill, and it was a rare chance to talk to her about how she goes about reading, writing, and the work of history. You can listen to The Deadline on The Last Archive feed, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Michael Wolff, and I'm the host of Fire and Fury, the podcast. Not too long ago, I saw Donald Trump, and he shouted, hey, Michael, I made you rich. And the truth is, my three books about Trump, they have sold a lot of copies. It all started eight years ago. I found myself in Donald Trump's Beverly Hills home, sharing Häagen-Dazs ice cream with him.

Our customers, they want us to do this unbelievably reliably, in the storms,

no matter what, hundreds of times a day. How do you turn a wild dream about a new kind of biology into a $10 billion company? We didn't have a particular technology. We.

didn't have a way of making money. It was a great way to start a company. I highly recommend it.

How do you sell millions of dollars worth of dog ramps for wiener dogs in the middle of a pandemic?

We're working with 400 influencers, and the majority of them are actually not a person,

but it's actually a dog. I can tell you right now, the dog ramp guy has some very interesting problems. Listen to What's Your Problem? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Have you been asking yourself the question, why, lately? Why is this country seemingly plunging into chaos? Here's why. The left controls every cultural institution in America, academia, film, literature, music, art, basically all forms of storytelling. They've been pumping a Marxist ideology into the American bloodstream for decades.

from the medical records, stating, quote, In, independently weighing the evidence proffered during the trial and coordinating with the newly discovered medical records,

numerous discrepancies appeared. Judge Koppel claimed Marion wasn't candid with law enforcement, the district attorney's office, the jury, or her, the judge, throughout the entire process. The judge noted that Marion claimed her rebellious behavior, bad grades, and attempted suicides were solely the result of the abuse she endured by her former stepfather, George Gage. Judge Koppel.

continued, The psychological records reveal a very different story altogether, showing that the victim, at 17 or younger, was having an affair with a 27-year-old convicted felon who was a heroin addict, and that when her mother learned of this relationship and that he had entered the victim's school grounds, the mother reported this to authorities and was responsible for the 27-year-old being re-apprehended and returned to the state prison. Judge Koppel explained that the medical

records showed that after her mother, Wanda, worked to get her boyfriend locked up, Marion went into a rage, and when confronted by her mother for her poor school performance, outrageous social behavior, and relationship with a convicted heroin addict, Marion placed the blame squarely on the shoulders of George Gage. This was in direct contradiction to Marion's sworn testimony. Before George's trial, the court held what's called a preliminary hearing, where key witnesses testify to determine whether there is enough evidence to warrant a trial. Marion was asked during this preliminary hearing whether she was having any problems with her boyfriend around the time she accused George Gage of molesting her. She responded, no.

She entered into an apparent suicide attempt by cutting her wrist and was hospitalized. The victim's first admission to the hospital clearly reveals this, and although the records reflect the letters SA for sexual abuse, which seems to be an afterthought thrown in by the victim for convenience, and perhaps even for continued funding, and for the purpose of an.

excuse for her behavior. Judge Koppel could only find one instance during the entire course of her therapy that Marion promised to talk about the sexual abuse, but the doctor's notes showed no sign of that ever happening. The judge found that odd, given the elaborate detail that Marion described during the trial. By contrast, there were many notes about Marion's life with her boyfriend, mother, cheerleading, and school throughout the therapist's journal. Judge.

Koppel continued, However, the most important aspect, as alluded to earlier by the court, is the experience of this mother with children and her ability to evaluate their behavior in general. The court did not believe the mother's description of the behavior of the victim and her daughter's attempt to blame it on the defendant. The medical records bear this out.

You may remember that Wanda was a teacher. In the medical records, Judge Koppel found a multiple page admission packet filled out by Wanda for Marion's admission to psychological counseling.

Judge Koppel continued, The court cannot fathom that this teacher mother, with years of experience, doing anything but being honest with the psychologist at a time when her daughter had just tried to commit suicide, and with both she and the psychologist being on the fact-finding mission to help the daughter. Now, it is understood that teachers and mothers are known to describe their children and others' children as not always telling the truth, and one would expect that such language would from time to time, in the appropriate circumstance, be used. Calling a child or another's child a liar is quite a strong word, and one would not expect one to use this clear and affirmative language unless the behavior was so bad, and unless the motivation to inform the hearer of the truth was so intense that one wanted the hearer to know and to understand that the person described was a liar. That being said, the admission form in the medical records, and what appears to be in the mother's own handwriting, state that the victim.

is a liar. Judge Koppel said that Marion's mother, Wanda, went much farther than calling her daughter just a liar. She continued,

It is further understood that when one wants to more than emphasize that a person habitually lies and wishes to convey that, perhaps it is a constant thing in a regular behavior of a person, especially one's own child, and especially if one wants to emphasize without question that this behavior persists in a child, perhaps even on a daily basis, one would use an adjective to emphasize what kind of a liar we are dealing with. Mother comes through again, and it is believed by the court that her double-by-now emphasis, since just telling lies would have been sufficient if it occurred only from time to time, on desiring to intensify this unacceptable behavior of her child was in the only spirit in which it was and could have been offered to the psychologist, to emphasize how serious a problem lying was with this child. In any event, mother describes the.

as a pathological liar. Judge Koppel explained that Wanda didn't want to stop there. in emphasizing her daughter's affinity towards lying. She went even further. Judge Koppel continued,

But yet, this isn't enough either, as mother seemed intent to the utmost in describing the serious condition of her child, who apparently just tried to take herself out of the world. It is, upon first blush, difficult to how one could possibly go any further to impress upon a psychologist seeing one's child for the first time, as describing one's child as a pathological liar should normally be enough to get the message across. But this doesn't happen in this case. Mother's on a mission to tell the psychologist that this is probably the most serious case of lying that she has ever seen in her lifetime. It is hard to imagine that one might come across a human more than a handful of times in one's lifetime, and it seems that mom must never have experienced this level of lying before, even in all her years of teaching.

the best for her child. Judge Koppel went on to explain that never in all of her years on the bench has a mother so thoroughly and convincingly tore down the credibility of her own daughter. Wanda told the truth to the psychologist and not to the court or the jury, claimed Judge Koppel. Now seeing Marion's medical records, with her own mother calling her a pathological liar that lives her lies, Judge Koppel ordered a new trial, but of course the retrial decision was overturned.

evidence out there where the mom had described her own daughter as a pathological liar who lives her.

lies, and that she had tried to commit suicide. when her mom found out about her having an affair with a man 10 years her senior. He was 27,, she was 17, and she reported him to the police because he would come on school grounds, and they arrested him and put him back in prison because he was on parole. So when she got into a heated argument, she tried to commit suicide, okay, because she loved the boy. She tried to commit suicide, and when she took him to the doctor, that's when she, in the admission papers, she described her daughter as a pathological liar who lives her lies.

And there was nothing, no, nothing at all in her psychological sessions, nothing about a sexual penetration, nothing about being sexually assaulted by George Gage, nothing at all. And you would think, if somebody was going to get professional help, they would disclose something.

like that, and there was nothing there. So that in and of itself should have been disclosed, because the defense could have used it. The defense could have got up in front of the jury and said, it's not true that your mom described you, or even the mom. Isn't it true you describe your?

own daughter as a pathological liar who lives her lies? And the jury would not give the word the same way. And that's what the judge was talking about. The judge was saying, in addition,

I saw her testify, and I know she was lying. In a, he said, she said, case, with absolutely no physical evidence, no witnesses of the abuse, and no prior record of assault, the credibility of the witness was paramount. Prosecutor Estes even stated as much to the jury in his closing argument, when he stated, quote, you've been provided some instructions, the jury instructions, that the court will read to you. That, in essence, is the law that you are to follow. And you all have to agree to do that.

witness, Marion. Again, Laura Bazelon. It entirely boiled down to whether or not the jury believed Marion when she said that it happened. And what the prosecutor had in his possession, but did not turn over, were extensive medical and psychiatric records documenting that Marion had real problems with telling the truth, with someone who was extremely emotionally unstable, had attempted suicide and been hospitalized, had had her mom write on an intake form, my daughter is a pathological liar who lives her lies. And none of that evidence was provided to the jury in the process of them assessing her credibility.

defender, if it were possible that Prosecutor Estes just didn't know the contents of the medical.

records. Well, I guess what you're asking is, is the excuse that he was just extremely negligent and didn't read anything in these medical and psychological files. I think it's highly doubtful, because he reacted so strongly to the request to have them turned over. And because when your whole case boils down to a single person, I would imagine that you would do your due diligence and find out as much as you could about that person. And he sought to have those records turned over to him.

answer her questions. These turn of events were stunning. Marion's victim impact statement led to the release of Marion's medical records. It showed evidence that would have cast serious doubt on her and her mother's credibility.

Red Pilled America is an iHeartRadio original podcast. It's produced by me, Adriana Cortez, and Patrick Karelchi for Informed Ventures. Now, our entire archive of episodes is only available to our backstage subscribers. To subscribe, visit redpilledamerica.com and click support at the top of the menu. That's redpilledamerica.com and click support at the top of the menu.

I'm Ben Nadifafri, host of the history show, The Last Archive, and I want to tell you about a new series we're running in our feed. It's called The Deadline. Six essays written and read by Jill Lepore, the New Yorker writer, American historian and founding host of our show. These are incredible essays on everything from the history of cryogenics to the Silicon Valley gospel of disruption. And at the end of each essay, I interview Jill about her craft as a writer.

My name is Michael Wolff. Each week on Fire & Fury, the podcast, I take you deeper into the mind of Donald Trump and his campaign than any other journalist ever goes. I've written three books on Trump, but for some reason, the people around him, they keep on talking to me. To find out what they tell me, listen to Fire & Fury, the podcast, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever. you get your podcasts. From tips for healthy living to the latest medical breakthroughs, WebMD's Health Discovered podcast keeps you up to date on today's most important health issues. Through in-depth conversations with experts from across the healthcare community, WebMD reveals how today's health news will impact your life tomorrow. It's not that people don't.

know that exercise is healthy. It's just that people don't know why it's healthy, and we're struggling to try to help people help themselves and each other. Listen to WebMD Health Discovered.

on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.