Lie Detector (Finale)

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Of all the cases that I've worked on, this tops top 2 or 3 of cases. That is serious injustice.

I did the work of significantly reforming the criminal justice system.

He thought Marion's physical examination was inconsistent with her rape allegations. If this guy was a guy who would have sex with somebody that young, there's not a prosecutor.

In this country, who would offer him three years?

You're making, I think, a strong case on the merits.

We think it's fair for us to say at this point that George Gage is innocent of this crime. In what way would it be dangerous for you?

I'm like, kill me.

I'm Patrick Kuralche.

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Shortly after Barack Obama's historic rise to the Oval Office, Kamala Harris was already being groomed for the White House.

There's a great district attorney in San Francisco whose name is Kamala Harris. She's brilliant, she's smart, she doesn't look anything like anybody you ever see on law and order, yet she's tough and she's got a big future. They call her the Female Barack Obama.

I mentioned in one of the teases for your segment, Kamala, that you have been called by some the female. Barack Obama Do you have ambitions for national Office?

You know, it's one step at a time.

As early as 2009, her name was already on the lips of media heavyweights like David Letterman, Matt Lauer and even kingmaker Oprah Winfrey.

With a 90 percent conviction rate, superstar prosecutor Kamala Harris made history when she was elected California's first African-American female district attorney. Law enforcement has such a direct impact on the most vulnerable people in the community, and I want it to be at the table when the decisions are being made. I'm proud of creating a child assault unit dedicated to prosecuting those kinds of cases because I think they deserve the most serious of consequences.

By the end of Obama's first year in office. The young Jamaican Indian American lawyer published her book, Smart on Crime, branding herself as a criminal justice reformer and protector of children.

She's California's most innovative district attorney.

Kamala Harris created a long overdue child assault unit.

In 2010, the rising Democrat star ran for Attorney General of California, and she won.

Distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the podium the honorable California Attorney General, Kamala Devi Harris.

Two years later, Kamala was one of the few elected officials to be given a prime speaking spot at the Democratic National Convention.

I thank you for the honor and privilege to be here.

Her ascent within the Democrat party put her on the radar of President Obama, who took time to speak about her at a San Francisco area fundraiser. And when he did, his comments sparked a minor controversy.

Now the president is getting some flack for something, he said. In California yesterday, it happened at a Democratic National Committee fundraiser, which was closed to cameras. While he praised California's Attorney General, Kamala Harris, the president called her quote by far the best looking attorney general in the country. There was a lot of backlash online, social media, Twitter, I think we all know.

His trip, and he called her to apologize for the distraction created by his comments.

The story made it obvious that Kamala Harris was becoming a national figure. It was only a matter of time before the attorney general would make a move for Washington, D.C. That day arrived on January 8, 2015, with an announcement by California Senator Barbara Boxer.

I am never going to retire, but I will not be running for the Senate in 2016.

So just five days after the news, Kamala Harris threw her hat into the ring for the liberal politician's Senate seat.

And making it official today, California's Attorney General, Kamala Harris, announced that she will indeed run for the U.

It was a bold move. Major players like Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti, former L..A. mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, representative Adam Schiff, billionaire Tom Steyer and former U.S Attorney General Janet Marino were all mulling a run for the vacancy. But Kamala was the first to announce and was the immediate frontrunner. However, as she entered the race, a controversy was brewing for the candidate.

The other thing that I think is really important to point out here about Kamala Harris in particular, is to contrast the Gage case with another case called Johnny Baca.

That's Laura Bazelon from earlier in the series.

And in that case, there was also significant prosecutorial misconduct and there was a ninth circuit oral argument.

The case that Laura is referring to is that of Johnny Baca, a man convicted for a murder-for-hire double homicide. On the same day of Barbara Boxer's retirement announcement, Johnny Baca's case reached the Ninth Circuit, where his lawyer was asking for a retrial. A California prosecutor in Baca's initial trial was caught lying, and his testimony played a key role in Baca's guilty verdict.

So the thing that's so troubling about this case is it's the kind of thing that makes you feel that the trial was fundamentally unfair.

It was improper, and I don't dispute that.

Is that the practice of the Riverside County prosecutor to put on prosecutors who lie? And then that's okay, because we have this other evidence.

I don't think it's proper, your honor, and I hope that I made that clear when I began this argument. And I think it's clear that the California courts have not concluded, not reassuring that they have taken those steps. I mean, you would think that if they find out about it court of appeal, opinion and the magistrate, you know, they would be up in arms. And they would have done something about it to show that this is an aberration. But the total silence on this suggests that this is sort of the way it's done and they got caught this time. But they're going to keep doing it because they have state judges who are willing to look the other way. It's not a reassuring picture.

And in that case, the judge on the ninth circuit who was presiding was a very famous judge, and he lacerated the deputy attorney general.

Let me put it in somewhat different terms. You work for the attorney general, right? I do your honor, okay, and the attorney general may prosecute, correct your honor —.has authority to do that.

I will your honor.

Okay, have any steps been taken to show that California does not condone prosecutors getting on the stand and lying to their jury in a criminal case? Anything like that happened in this case. Your honor, yes, in this case.

I have not done that.

Have you done that? I have not. you have the authority to do that. do you? not? my office does, with the approval of your supervisor.

Can I just ask him one more—one question? This really troubles me about this case. It reminds me of Tommy Thompson. The prosecution pursued a theory of murder for hire under the theory that Tom hired Baca.

Right?

That is correct, your honor.

Well, how come, Tom?—Was Tom ever prosecuted?

The answer to that question appears to be no. I can find no record of it.

It is completely inexplicable to me that he would,—I mean, he would be the principal in this murder for hire thing. Unless it was a totally fabricated theory that the jailhouse niche made up along with the prosecutor.

I have no explanation for it, I don't know.

At the time, the ninth Circuit had just started to livestream their oral arguments on YouTube.

And the argument went viral in the sense that tens of thousands of people watched it, which legally is a big deal.

The video began to spread right around the time that Kamala Harris entered the race for California senator in the midst of the turmoil. Instead of announcing her candidacy in front of the press, Kamala chose to quietly launch her campaign through a Facebook post. A few days later, the Los Angeles Times published a scathing piece about the prosecutorial misconduct of California and placed the blame on the doorstep of the attorney general.

And it was extremely embarrassing to Kamala Harris, and it made news, it made national news. And she relented, and she agreed to drop the case, and Johnny Baca got a retrial.

The reaction of the ninth circuit forced a response from Kamala Harris.

But in George Gage's case, he didn't have a celebrity judge, and not that many people watched the argument. And so the political stakes for Harris and for her office just weren't that high. And even though, in my opinion, the evidence that George Gage is innocent is far more compelling than the evidence that Johnny Baca is innocent. It was Johnny Baca who got the relief that he deserved, and not George Gage. I did the work of significantly reforming the criminal justice system.

Kamala Harris has always claimed to be a criminal justice reformer, but when it counted. When? The ninth circuit panel of judges expressed a real concern for the validity of George Gage's conviction and sent the case back to Kamala Harris's office for mediation, she quietly refused to act. George Gage's attorney, Tony Fermani, hit their roadblock.

And then the court took this extraordinary step of sending it to mediation. And there's no stronger signal of a court saying we want you to make this case go away than directing the parties to mediation. So at that point, it really was in the Attorney General's court to do the right thing.

But she didn't do the right thing her office wouldn't release the evidence. George's chances for a retrial vanished. Kamala Harris wasn't the only ambitious lawyer seeking power that failed George Gage at the time of his trial. Prosecutor Estes was in the middle of an election to become a judge in the Los Angeles Superior Court.

The jury convicted George Gage on March 2, 2000, and on March 7, 2000, so five days later, he won his judicial election. So I think that that timing is certainly interesting.

I asked Tony why Estes didn't turn over the evidence during the trial. I mean, because he's a state prosecutor that's supposed to be pursuing justice, right? Why would he have not turned that over, though, because he would have lost the case, but why would that matter?

They don't like to lose.

It's very, very demeaning when they lose a case.

They have their reputation.

It's harder for them to become judges number one, you know?

Even if it's an innocent man, even if it's an innocent man, they do it all the time.

They do it all the time, even if it's an innocent man.

And that's just the way they are, they don't care.

They care about winning.

To them, winning is the number one goal, and this is exactly what Christopher Estes did is he was becoming a judge. For many people seeking power, the truth is an afterthought. Nothing can get in the way of their reputation. Winning is all that matters.

It has everything you need to know about your physical and mental health. Personally, I'm overwhelmed by the wellness industry. I mean, there's so much information out there about lifting, weights, pelvic floors, cold plunges, anti-aging. So I launched Body and Soul to share doctor-approved insights about all of that and more. We're tackling everything.

I'm Jacob Goldstein. I used to host a show called Planet Money. Now I'm starting a new show. It's called What's your Problem? every week on What's Your Problem? Entrepreneurs and engineers describe the future they're going to build.

We didn't have a particular technology.

We didn't have a way of making money.

It was a great way to start a company.

I highly recommend it. What could go wrong? How do you sell millions of dollars worth of dog ramps for wiener dogs in the middle of a pandemic?

We're working with 400 influencers and the majority of them are actually not a person, but it's actually a dog.

I can tell you right now, the Dog Ramp guy has some very interesting problems. Listen to What's Your Problem? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Michael Wolff and I'm the host of Fire Fury the podcast. Not too long ago, I saw Donald Trump and he shouted, Hey Michael, I made you rich. And the truth is, my three books about Trump, they have sold a lot of copies. It all started eight years ago. I found myself in Donald Trump's Beverly Hills home, sharing Häagen-dazs ice cream with him.

Welcome back. So, a big reason why George Gage's case may not have applied the same pressure to Kamala Harris as Johnny Baca's case did, was because it severely undermined a movement. To believe George Gage is innocent, you also have to believe his accuser, Marion, fabricated the allegations against him. This goes against a powerful political narrative that has been crafted since the nomination of Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court.

Can you tell the committee what was the most embarrassing of all the incidences that you have alleged?

I think the one that was the most embarrassing was his discussion of.

GARY Anything you'd like to say, Senator? I would like to start by saying, unequivocally, uncategorically, that I deny each and every single allegation against me today. That suggested, in any way, that I had conversations.

Of a sexual nature or about pornographic material with Anita Hill that I ever attempted to date her?

That I ever had any personal sexual interest in her, or that I in any way ever harassed her? And from my standpoint as a Black American, as far as I'm concerned, it is a high-tech lynching.

From that day forward, the public was told that we must believe all allegations of sexual assault made by a woman. Of course, pseudo-research supporting this claim followed, and the research was used against George Gage in his trial. You may recall that the prosecution used a last-minute medical expert named Nurse Ware. In the course of her testimony, she delivered a line that likely sealed George's fate. When asked by Judge Koppel the percentage of people she examined that were not sexually abused, Nurse Ware responded saying Quote. That's pretty low because we know that 98 of the time. According to the research, when a child reports sexual abuse, it has occurred. And we may not find anything on the exam, but that doesn't mean that it didn't occur. End quote.

And that's why I didn't take the plea deal.

If you didn't catch that, what George meant to say was what Marion said he did, he did not do. That's why he didn't take the plea deal. He also believed at the time that the court system was supposed to be fair and that there had to actually be evidence for him to be found guilty. But that was not the case.

But then I didn't understand how the court system go, I thought the court system was fair.

I'm not going to go by the truth.

But they make up all kinds of things. Otherwise, I would have taken the plea deal.

And I was sorry, I didn't.

Because if I did, I wouldn't be in here now for another 21 years.

Yeah, I thought they were fair.

You know, I think they go by evidence.

But I get to find out they don't have to have evidence to find you guilty.

Do you have any hope that you will get released someday?

Yeah.

I think, so, do you think about that a lot?

Yeah.

Well, if I live, if I live long enough, within four years from now, they might release me, and I'll be paroled if I live long enough.

Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. If you follow me on social media, you know I love to cook. Or at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyt, Alison Roman and, of course, Ina Garten and Martha Stewart. So I started a free newsletter called Good Taste that comes out every Thursday, and it's serving up recipes that will make your mouth water.

I'm Jacob Goldstein. I used to host a show called Planet Money. Now I'm starting a new show. It's called What's your Problem? every week on What's Your Problem?

We didn't have a particular technology.

We didn't have a way of making money.

It was a great way to start a company.

I highly recommend it.

How do you sell millions of dollars worth of dog ramps for wiener dogs in the middle of a pandemic?

We're working with 400 influencers and the majority of them are actually not a person, but it's actually a dog.

I can tell you right now, the Dog Ramp guy has some very interesting problems. Listen to What's Your Problem? on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My name is Michael Wolff and I'm the host of Fire Fury the podcast. Not too long ago, I saw Donald Trump and he shouted, Hey Michael, I made you rich. And the truth is, my three books about Trump, they have sold a lot of copies. It all started eight years ago. I found myself in Donald Trump's Beverly Hills home, sharing Häagen-dazs ice cream with him.

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Welcome back to red Pilled America. So George Gage eventually faced the Parole Board in January 2024. After 25 years in prison. He was granted parole. George was 85 years old.

I never used drugs in my life.

So I didn't have no problems.

And I could pass the polygraph test.

And there was nothing for me to be scared about.

Because of that, I said, I'm not going to take it.

In his eyes, he was telling the truth, yet the polygraph said he was lying, so because of that, George decided not to take the test when he was arrested. You may remember, at the beginning of this series, we asked if people could spot a fibber. Do you think that you can tell when someone is lying?

I think you can, yes.

Can you tell if someone's lying?

Uh, yeah, yeah, I think I can tell if I'm looking at them with their body language, yes.

Yeah, I think I can tell when people are lying.

Yes, yeah, yes, I mean, I have been fooled like anybody else, but I do think I can.

All but one said yes, because we all think we have an inner lie detector. But then I asked that same group, a different question Have you ever been telling the truth and somebody did not believe you?

Yes.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Me too, you too.

I feel like there's been times where I've told the truth and people were still skeptical.

Have you ever been telling the truth to somebody and them not believe you?

Yes.

Uh, yeah.

I think so, yes.

Sure, it's happened.

Have you ever been telling the truth to somebody and them not believe you?

Yes, absolutely.

The truth is, we really can't tell if someone is lying.

We need to know, are we about to put somebody on the United States Supreme Court who committed a sexual assault? Senator Harris? This is a classic, he said. She said Case somebody isn't telling the truth.

What is your process to determine who's telling the truth here?

It comes down to credibility, to your point, Gail, and it's going to be about listening to what each party has to say. But I believe her.

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Hi.

I'm Jacob Goldstein. I used to host Planet Money. Now I'm starting a new show. It's called What's Your Problem? every week on What's Your Problem. Entrepreneurs and engineers describe the future they're going to build.

My name is Michael Wolff. Each week on Fire and Fury, the podcast, I take you deeper into the mind of Donald Trump and his campaign than any other journalist ever goes. I've written three books on Trump. But for some reason, the people around him, they keep on talking to me to find out what they tell me. Listen to Fire and Fury the podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.