Biden Out, Harris In: A Media Disasterpiece

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It's just too damn late. It's too damn late. It's too damn hard. The American people won't stand for it. The Democratic Party won't stand for it.

Donald Trump is now the inevitable next president. They are unified, deified, and on their way. And now there's a new candidate. And she is deified and on her way. And it's a land.

And Donald Trump can't believe that. he chose J.D. Vance, who's a lunkhead. And now it's been a fucking week. And the whole thing is twisted on its head.

And none of it is really what's happening. And we still have another three and a half months of this.

I'm here with my erstwhile producers, Brittany Mamedovic and Lauren Walker. And I apologize for the sheer mind-blowedness of it. And the media takes their cues from the most prognosticating and speculating amongst us and locks it in as conventional wisdom. And you can just see, none of it is real. It's mind-boggling.

We had such a hard time. I don't know how you guys do this. Why is it? it's difficult for us to book pundits or journalists that are on television? Their organizations will not let them come on our podcast.

Let that sink in for just a moment. Organizations that rely on access and transparency refuse to allow their reporters to come on podcast to talk about the issues of the day. Why? What do they say to you, Brittany, when you ask them? Honestly, I haven't been able to get clear answers, which is part of the frustration.

We're not naming names, but we may at some point. No, it's on the line, but it's unlike anything I've really ever seen, kind of in the decade that I've been doing this. Honestly, it just, you know, and even the simple question, like phone calls, go unanswered. It's a very just like we're going to. we're going to politely decline on this.

This large organization, NBC, left you on read. Didn't they leave after saying, no, we can't have our reporter talk to you. Yeah. And then they stopped answering as to why. And the reporters say, I'd like to do it.

Yeah. In this case, reporters are like, would love to join. Just need to get network approval. Network approval. Network approval comes back and says, we're going to decline on this.

Yeah. And I say, oh, why? Is there a scheduling issue? Is there, you know, what is the reason? we're politely declining?

So you call and you just say, wow, can I understand it? Like, is it, you know, any information? We're reasonable, nice people. Well, most of the time you are. I don't know if I get to fall into that category, but you certainly do.

But just let that sink in. I just want people at home to let that sink in for a second. News organizations, stonewall inquiries as to why their reporters are not allowed or being restricted from just being able to come on a stupid fucking podcast and give their opinion, even as just a promotional tool for either the reporter or for the organizations that they work for. Yes. You know, I've once heard a wise man say democracy dies in darkness.

But how is it possible that a news organization would not feel shame and bewilderment at using the techniques of obfuscation that they rail against from politicians and public figures. Lauren, you work, you were in journalism for a long time. Do you recall there being that type of how in the world? I understand that you, you know, you can't go write articles for other papers or you can't host a show on another network, but these types of promotional or cross-pollinating appearances should be standard fare. Nobody's saying that person is now hired to be a part of a regular, ongoing commentary.

it's hard not to take this personally. It's a once a week podcast. But also we plug this like we will say, like NBC or CNN or MSNBC contributor. We had the same problem with CNN. They gave us a bunch of shit for trying to bring somebody on like.

it's, it's bonkers and it makes no sense, and I would think it's, it's an embarrassment to those organizations, those news organizations. and The crazy thing to me is, the journalists themselves think it's insane. Yeah, they want to do it, and it shows the fundamental disconnect between the people that are running these organizations and what those organizations are supposedly there for, which is informing the public on the issues of the day, whether they're informing it on somebody's podcast or something else. Just absolute nonsense, but I want to point out because and this is inside baseball, and who even knows how much of this survives? edit into the show.

But, like, I just want to give props to Lauren and Brittany, who have to constantly pivot.

Biden can't win. Trump is inevitable. Kamala is inevitable. Trump is now regret like, holy shit, calm down.

So I'm going to let's, let's jump in with that now and and see where we go.

All right, here we are. We're going to talk to our guest. Doris Kearns Goodwin, presidential historian, Pulitzer Prize winning author, whose most recent book is an unfinished love story, personal history of the 1960s, and also Eugene Daniels Politico, White House correspondent and playbook co-author.

Doris, lovely to see you again.

I'm going to start with you real quick, as a presidential historian, is this this is catnip. I would assume, you know, in an unprecedented moment in presidential history. Are you taste? Are you taste in the Pulitzer? Are you tasted?

What's coming your way when you, when you write this book? What are your thoughts on the historic nature of what we're seeing right now?

I mean you, you're happy to be living in a difficult time.

He was about to lose in Wisconsin, but, much more importantly, what was happening to him was that they had been told that unless he sent 200,000 more troops to Vietnam, that it would all, and it could only be a stalemate if that was so. and he decided the time had come to wind the war down. So that was the major speech. He was going to give. but he knew nobody would believe it if he was still a candidate.

So we prepared that speech. It stunned the nation when he not only said that he was going to wind the war down, but he was going to withdraw from the presidency so he could spend all of his time on the presidential duties. And I remember I was watching that was stunned. My husband was up in New Hampshire, Richard Goodwin, with Theodore White, the great journalist, and White had told him that five days before he had seen LBJ, who looked terrible. He was under such pressure and he felt like his face was sunken.

His voice was so soft, and now he watched him on the screen before he even said he was going to withdraw, and he looked like a different person composed, relaxed. The tensions had been reduced. So that's what reminded me most, I think, of what's happening now.

Yeah, you're the micro guy. You're in there every day. The breakneck speed at which this is all happening has got to be dizzying for anybody who's on the inside trying to cover all the development.

We go to political offices. There's a. you know, dozens of people there watching that happens around the country in newsrooms, and immediately people started to be a little bit confused about what was happening. And then, when President Biden said I beat Medicare, that is when our flown phone started blowing up. So really, that sentence is really what set off kind of this entire firestorm.

There was sort of a sense that Biden was going to be a one-term president. He himself said, you know, I'm running to stop Trump and and that's going to be it. that debate couldn't have come as a shock to the people that have been with him day in and day out.

So we're not starting, you know, the bars already kind of low here for what people are anticipating from him. He's not, you know, this. people don't see him as like this orator.

and you know, if you think about it, the people around him, people who have been doing this for a really long time. if he was like that all the time, why would you debate? they decided that June 27th was the debate that they wanted. They decided that it should be before he had the nomination sewn up. They thought it would focus the American people on the race.

It has not in the way that that they wanted to right where they.

that's actually true. We're going to test that. the Democrats are going to test that theory moving forward, but that was moving and motivating them to kind of move forward in the way that they were, whether or not they saw. well, at some point we will everyone write books and long, deep articles about what people are actually saw.

What? what has changed? You know, I'm curious. what has changed from the sort of the boys on the bus, from that idea of the access to the presidential candidates? in your mind, was the Biden campaign different traditionally from other campaigns in the way that they limited access, or has access?

do we have more reporters now, but less actual access.

So things were different then, and that's a problem. Wow, but I do think I just want to go back to one thing you said before when you said that how badly LBJ looked. I knew him in the last years of his life, when his hair grew long and it was white and he looked like a cowboy, and that was a good-looking LBJ.

It's what everybody who made a mistake during a debate must have said, whether it was Ford when he said something about Eastern Europe, or Mike Dukakis when he said something about capital punishment. you go the rest of your life, you know, I've talked to these candidates and they say you say when did you stop thinking about? they say, what do you mean? you think we stopped thinking about that? So, for Biden, I think in those first days it must have been almost frozen to think about that, and then he had to consider well, the press is coming after me, those editorials, the donors are coming after me and then for a while he could say well, it's just the elites.

but I think when the congressman told him that their constituents the people in other words, or 90 to 10, saying he had to stand down, then he finally had to make that decision. It's a really tough decision.

It was very obvious. They said he had a cold. It will be a very long time. We may never know what the actual truth is of what was happening up there. right, because we've seen him since and he's kind of back to old man Biden, as opposed to what we saw in the debate stage, but I think something that's that is has continues to be fascinating to me is that when they were saying that it was the elites that wanted Biden out, that was almost never true.

The primary, the primary that wasn't had in polling that voters wanted something else. voters one did not want to Trump, the Biden race, and even Democrats didn't want President Biden. and then they you know, the Democratic apparatus as it as it is kind of came together and decided, as they often do know, we're going with the incumbent, right? It is. it is rare that that, especially nowadays, that they would do something differently.

and then what really, I think, turned the tide for Biden was kind of the way that he and his team strategized and work this out. that first week, when it was kind of, they hunker down and did the normal Biden world thing, which they ignore everything. They don't, they don't want to be distracted. and then they focused on. he had, he had that North Carolina rally, then he had the one interview with George Stephanopoulos, and they really thought that that was going to move things.

it didn't.

and on Monday, when he sent this letter to Hill Democrats, being super defiant, basically saying get over it and get in line. That is when he started to hear a lot of members of Congress be like, oh, we're not doing that. his morning Joe interview was was in that same vein. So then he went to being defiant and at one point he had to be humbled, and so it will, and then he dropped out right. and so these, the way that those decisions were made, also really impacted how much Democrats were upset.

and when he said in that door Stephanopoulos interview, you know, it just matters if I just kind of give my darnedest if we.

Dean Phillips. I'm sorry, who we've all decided is actually not a real person, but in fact the picture on a hose sales ad. but Trump has utterly usurped the entire apparatus of the Republican Party. It really is in service to one man. He controls the platform.

He writes it specifically. it takes out all the things that are traditionally doors. How, how Democratic are these parties? How much do they normally control, what these apparatuses are and how much of a say, you know, there's delegates. There's super delegates.

There's all these things that make it not a true Democratic Party, but at least with the Democrats, they are answering in many ways to their base, to their voters, who are saying this can't be, we can't have this guy, right?

Sometimes. I wish we could go back to that. Right now. the primary started in 1912 with Teddy Roosevelt wanting to beat Taft in his own party.

. It was the people should rule. that was the argument. and Teddy Roosevelt wanted to beat his own friend and the current president Taft. So he needed primaries because he had the popularity and Taft had the party delegates on him.

So anyway, they that that splits the Democratic, the Republican Party into, and that's the end of the primary. Nobody wants it anymore until it finally comes back in the 50s and the 60s. and where it really becomes strong is in 1968, when Humphrey wins despite having not gone into the primaries because he had the party delegates behind him in Lyndon Johnson, then they decide we need primaries. We need primaries.

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Okay, we're back picking up again, Doris.

It's the status quo. It's conventional wisdom. This is the only way to do it and and Eugene will get to you with this in a second, because I think it informed some of the coverage. What I saw in the coverage was this is impossible. It's way too late to in any way ever switch a candidate.

But the truth is that is an utterly modern phenomenon and none of this ever even takes place. generally. I think none of it even begins to take place until the convention and moving forward, this permanent campaign that we are in is a modern phenomenon. Is it not, Doris?

but I think the interesting thing is where the leaders came back. the Democratic leaders came back. the Biden situation was even before the debate, three out of four people thought he was too old. They were not happy with either choice of Trump or Biden, but somehow they didn't pay attention to that. They thought you had to take the person who was there.

He had done a good job as president, Etc. Etc. But then, once that debate happened, those leaders are the ones that helped to make things change. Nancy Pelosi said the question is was it an episode or condition right? They started making space for the fact that he might not be able to stay there.

The pressure kept building up. They spoke up. So the leaders at the leaders of the Democratic Party really helped to make this happen because, as I say, they were hearing from the people. So finally had to make the decision as hard as it was for him.

They are walking into a death trap. how they are. These are idiots that would say it's too late. It's too late for Biden to drop out. Biden is your only chance.

you are idiots. two days later. They are saying excitement around Kamala Harris. are the Democrats only chance. Thank God.

They finally pulled the plug on this death trap of a candidacy. That was Joseph Biden. in the same way, a week before it was Donald Trump is inevitable. The Republicans are coming out of this convention. JD Vance is a brilliant stroke, and now they're writing.

Trump is in trouble. He hates JD Vance. JD Vance is the worst reporters ever read their own articles.

They wanted him gone, but they didn't know how to do it. But also whether or not they have the actual wherewithal, like inside of them, to do this, to get rid of this guy who everyone loves and thought it didn't really thought did a good job, but thought that he was going to make them lose until all of them down. more importantly, did they understand the rules of how an open Convention or a contested Convention would actually work? and I think that's where a lot of the like they would be insane to do this came from, because Democrats were like, how would we pick? it would be.

we can't do that. 14 million people voted for this man. Like how, what does that look like? But I talked to a lane K mark, who is an expert. She's literally written multiple books.

She updates it every four years about the conventions in primary system for Democrats, also the wife of Steny Hoyer, one of the members of Congress and a former leader in the house. and what she said is it is just like everyone just misunderstands. What is actually possible, that the power it's really like when you rep you vote for a representative to Congress. they make decisions on your behalf when they can't go back to all of you and find out what you need, what you want to say, right? And so they send these delegates and the delegates have all the power, and so have President Biden stayed in the delegates, who are people who aren't just like, who aren't just saying they're going to vote for him.

They're bound by him.

You said idiots. I'm account myself amongst the idiots.

But like it's, it's a it's a good lesson for all of us about.

The Atlantic. Trump is preparing for a landslide. When New York Times this is how you know, Trump smells. victory. July 15 Donald Trump, man of destiny.

July 18th, the Democrats aren't even trying. July 19th Republicans emerge from convention confident in Trump talking about a blowout victory. July 22nd pathetic Trump already trying to weasel out of debating Kamala Harris same day. Why Trump suddenly thinks picking JD Vance was a mistake. same day, Kamala Harris is shocking fundraising numbers.

terrify Trump. Yeah, like when are we going to learn from the media, Doris, you know, we keep talking about the difference in the old days and the new days. There's no question. back then, the smoke-filled room was the elites choosing things. The reporters had a different relationship with the candidates, but what we have now is chaos, without context or perspective.

hot takes that in many ways inflame the electorate rather than illuminate the electorate. How do we take a breath? What do we do in terms of? we can't change the speed at which events take place. Yeah, but can we change the manner by which we either cheer that on or cover it?

Doris? What's, what's your thought on that?

Yes, they may have been in smoke-filled rooms, but they were looking for a candidate who could bridge the divides in the party. So they weren't looking for an extreme on either side. the problem with the caucus system now and the primary system is often a candidate comes from the extreme and then has to work their way back to the middle in order to win at the other end. So but it is more Democratic. We can never go backwards sometimes and I don't think people would even go back to the smoke-filled rooms.

Although I like some of those old political bosses in the old days. They had an intuition about who could possibly be the right person for that time. So, you know when that first primary happened, the New York Times wrote an editorial saying it was so vicious, as I was saying, between Taft and Teddy. Taft called Teddy a dictator and Teddy called Taft a pinhead that it was embarrassing. and if this is the first primary system, we hope it's.

we hope it's the last. and they said we must have a blush on everybody's cheeks. I know a pinhead is kind of a weird thing to call it.

but litigating what's going to happen next or how it's supposed to happen seems like a worthy endeavor.

And I think there's a fine line between analysis and kind of prognosticating and guessing, right? You can say, you know, former President Donald Trump got shot. Republicans feel X, Y, and Z. Democrats have paused on fighting with Biden because of it, you know, Republicans feel like this is going to give them a straight shot to November, right? That is fully things that are true at the time and so therefore will remain true that that happened and that's how people felt about it.

I think the bigger problem is like a lot of people using the word journalist who are not journalists. A lot of people who are saying they're reporters are not that, and so you're having folks that are sharing full opinions and on, you know, whether it's cable news, on podcasts, in their own articles, in op-eds, like the American people aren't really, they have so much going on, right, that they're not going to spend a lot of time to go Google if Joe Bob is an actual reporter at a news organization or if Joe Bob used to work for the Democratic Party at one point and now he's a consultant, right?

And then the next day, as the plane was ready to go to Hawaii to bring people to start the negotiations, Martin Luther King was killed. And then the riots happened in the streets.

They're heading toward the, you don't have to say where we're going for the future. We should have more understanding that we don't know the future, and the future keeps backing us up every single time, as we've seen in this last four weeks. Who could have predicted the events of the last four weeks? So I think they should feel able, and now Eugene knows this better than I am. I'm not a journalist.

I know 50 years from now, if I come back, I'll tell you exactly what it was going to be and how it ended, but they can't know that at the time.

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Okay, we're back. I wanted to ask, and Eugene, this is probably to you. What does happen now? What are the mechanics? No, I don't mean what happens now is like Kamala Harris, but what are the mechanics now of this convention?

Basically, it is an open convention, I would assume, unless they do, a nominating vote prior to that. But what are the mechanics of what we're going to see next?

They're members, and so they're senators. Some of them are local and state senators and members of the House Assemblies. And so they will kind of get together. They will decide what they're doing. We've got a draft proposal, and essentially what it says is we're going to vote and we're going to still have to hold a virtual roll call vote.

And the reason is they are certain that this kind of Ohio rule that if you don't have the name selected, if your person is not nominated, they can't make it on the ballot. Ohio changed the law. Ohio said this law does no longer matters. We can move on. The Democrats have chosen to ignore that.

And so they're going to continue to do that. And so it's by all intents and purposes, Vice President Harris is the presumptive nominee. We're not using that word because they've committed to her. And I pledged to her. so, you know, again, with knowing that the fate can intervene doors, they could get on that roll call vote and say, like, Jon Stewart is going to get it.

Let's go. What? Oh my God.

Yeah, and one of the biggest things I heard, but you know.

We can do these things. I mean, why are the best people not running for public office now? because they know they're going to have to spend their time raising money, tons and tons of money. They know their private lives are going to be exposed. They don't think that they're going to be able to get very much done because the two parties at loggerheads.

we created these problems by the system. We've created. we can change that system.

Eugene. What say you, sir? I think you're right.

Many of them want money, money out of politics. There are a lot of Republicans who are speaking this language right now, which is really interesting. It used to be more of a Democratic message. And so there's a world in which they do come together. that world has to, and this could be one of those moments where maybe the parties are looking around depending on what happens in November.

because, because, because anybody.

there's a lot of things that, if we fix this, one thing could, could, could work better in this country. I think the country might be better off for it, Doris.

I mean, we've made bigger changes in our lives, in our political lives, over time. You know, we ended segregation. We allowed more people to vote that didn't vote, women couldn't vote for so long and black people couldn't vote for so long. We've made those changes. We have to change the system as it is.

Now, you've gotten me really riled up right now. I've been living out of 50 years. I can be part of this. I want to be part of it.

the idea that this vetting process is somehow getting us closer to more competent and better leadership is nonsense and insane, and we have created an electoral campaign system that does the opposite of what it is intended to do, which is we've created a system so burdensome, so onerous, so expensive, so hate-filled that all it does is drag the worst of us to the highest positions in leadership. and I say it changes now, and I'm proud to announce my co-chairs of Eugene Daniels and Doris Kearns Goodwin and we're going to make this happen. and I didn't even I didn't even curse once, not one, that entire speech.

most recent book an unfinished love story personal history of the 60s. Eugene Daniels Politico, White House correspondent playbook co-author. Thank you both so much for joining us.

That was terrible for Rob on sound and and or Nicole and man, I'm fired up now. It really there was an epiphany in the middle of it. that it's not about the. the money follows the time, because the elections are never ending them. The money hose is unceasing.

if we change the time, we change the money, we change the atmosphere, we change the corrosive and eroding effects that it has on our souls. We shorten the time we have to endure this nonsense.

Yes, John. Are you on tick-tock? I'm in my life hack era. I'm not on tick-tock, but Maggie makes me know. Yeah, Kamala is brat, Doris is brat, Doris is brat and I didn't know what that was, but I'm assuming it's something.

how are we doing? Otherwise? I know we got some viewer questions or comments. What, what are we dealing with this?

I think that's pretty much how college roommates are now selected. is what time do you wake up? and are you a complete fucking pig, you know, so it's that that's the gradation. but I would suggest you are in close quarters. There is no better.

you are now in the dojo. You are in the conversation and topic dojo at 10 by 12, room to twin beds with plastic covering on it. You haven't slept on shit like that ever and and this is boot camp for learning how to get along with another person that you don't. I think they should switch roommates every six weeks and throw you into a whole other scenario of political and sociological tumult, and it should always end with like 6 30 in the morning, being like. in theory socialism does sound good, but in practice it just never worked.

That's what I don't avoid it. Lean in head first, feet first. And invest in a durable bong.

Or is that that's probably old school advice? because now the kids probably smoke in those, you know, the whatever those.

Oh, my God, babe. You gotta drop your skincare routine. Oh, well, here's, here's my routine. Don't do anything for 61 years. And let let the chips fall where they may.

Terrible, terrible. Well, so that so far. I think we've done an excellent job at responding to to viewers concerns.

That.

It's so interesting to me. You know, we're doing a podcast about social and political issues and everything we're getting so far is like my lifestyle blog. I think they want me to be a get ready with me influencer. Yeah. Talk about breakups and skincare.

I think I've been doing the wrong show forever. That's the next podcast. The breakup thing is be creative. Nobody wants. nobody wants just a straight.

Thank have them. come in a room and go. Oh, it's so bright in here. And then lower the blinds and on it is written. Get the fuck out.

Get out of my house. And then they're going to be like, oh shit, that hurts. but props to you. For the creative endeavor in the way that, in the way that you did it.

Gene. as always. I want to thank lead producer, Lauren Walker. producer Britney Mametovic, video editor and engineer Rob Vitola, audio editor and engineer Nicole Boyce, our researcher and associate producer, Jillian spirit. executive producers.

Chris McShane, Katie Gray. You guys are killing it. Great topics. Great research. Great information.

Thank you all so much. And and that's it for us. We'll see y'all next time on the weekly show. Bye. Bye.

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