Marion Jones (Olympic track-and-field athlete)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Miss Lily Padman.

Hi.

What a timely episode this is.

We couldn't have planned it this way. In fact, I wanted to release this early. You did? And I actually tried, but it didn't work out, and then it ended up really working out.

What timing. What timing. Marion Jones. God, I love Marion Jones. Fuck.

It's a real testament to attitude and perspective.

Oh my God. It's one of the most harrowing, crazy stories we've heard. Yeah. I love her. I love Marion Jones.

You guys kind of match. I like it.

We're matching? Is that right?

You guys have similar pant colors.

Look at that.

And then white. I was going to get you a Carolina blue top.

Same palette. Yeah.

So your wife leaving, getting a mammogram? Oh, yeah.

Oh, is that where she was opted? That's so funny.

Your kid came out of the car and they were, like, My mom's, going to get a mammogram.

Straight out with the full disclosure. My mom's got diarrhea. We're going to the store to get Pepto-Bismol. You just have one? Two.

Well, careful, how soon you're saying that, because you're about to hit an age. I have one who just turned 15 on Friday.

A girl?

It's the fucking worst. Yeah. It changes by the minute who she is.

It is hormonal.

I learned that from my oldest, who just turned 21 on Friday.

Wait, wait, you have two children with the same birthday?

Yeah, the oldest and the youngest. He turned 21 on Friday and then a 15 on Friday. No way.

I'd be so pissed if I was that older sibling.

Well, when they were young, they loved it. And then, in the middle, they hated it. And now they don't care.

They say that there are different phases that are easier. And yes, I've heard teenage gals, but I hate to say it, I think it's mostly directed at you. The mom. Yeah, I think the dad gets out kind of scot-free.

Yeah, I think so.

That was my experience as a teenager. My mom pretty much got all of that.

And when I tell you, it is literally by the minute. I brought her out here. Just she and I, a girl, trip a few weeks back. We did Universal. She was great.

Good morning, mother. The devil's here.

My mom used to say, you just wait. To me.

Right, exactly. Like, you're going to get what you.

You're going to reap what you sow.

I find myself tiptoeing because I don't want trauma.

You got to, though. There's two variables in the equation. You're one of them. She's one of them. And she's 15..

Like, I find myself texting in the chores that she has to do.

Because you don't want to face to face. I don't want to deal with it.

21. 03 and 07, 09..

You probably hate this question, but is there crazy athletic prowess? I mean, dad was an Olympic sprinter. You're an Olympic sprinter.

Naturally, they're all physically gifted. Yeah. You can tell from an early age. But they all have, like, different competitiveness.

That's a great delineation. I think of it as, like, athletic prowess. But you probably underestimate what part of the genetics is just a competitive nature. Forget the physiology.

The mindset of it all tips the scale. There are a lot of people who are extremely physically gifted. But those that really succeed, not even just succeed. There's a lot of people who do that. And it's nothing that you're taught.

Well, let's start with mom. Cause. mom is from Belize. And what age did she come? She came to LA directly.

She first came to New York. There's a large Belizean contingent that goes there.

I'm glad you said Belizean. I wouldn't have known.

Yeah. I want to hear what you said. I'm with you.

I probably would have said Belizean.

Yeah, actually me too.

Yeah, Belizean. But she went up there. She's young. What's young? 18,, 19..

We're the same age. Yeah. 75, let's go.

Yeah.

You also get to a point where you're like, hey, guess what? Y'all. I like me. I like where I'm at. I'm not carrying the shame you think I should be carrying.

People are like, you are?

Right, right. Well, because you've lived many people's worst nightmare. Living with secrecy is an incredible experience. Me, as an addict, you with your issues.

I love that.

Your stuff.

All your stuff.

I love how you tipped out. That might not have been the perfect word. I mean, it's so much.

Yeah, issues feels like that. word's canceled. We're like not allowed to say that anymore.

I strike issues. I'm going to, let's see, what would I pick instead of that? Your experience.

I know. You can curse on here, right?

You're shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're fucked up, miss. Let's go.

But I think, besides just you and I, this whole idea, that failure is not forever. And although my story is different than yours, different than yours or whomever, we have a common bond besides just humanists. Everybody gets beat down, breaks down, gets set back. I mean, it doesn't have to be what I went through, what you went through, but everybody at some point gets knocked the hell down.

They get their ass kicked.

Bankruptcy. Career stuff, right? And my hope, and people are like, well, Marian, why are you relevant? I've kind of heard that.

Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. Have you heard that? Or is that the shadow talking to you that you're assuming people might think that? Have you actually heard that?

Through my people, right? My response is my story is unique in that not everybody can relate to running 10 points, something seconds, winning gold medal, going to prison, being a convicted felon. But everybody knows this idea. Everybody knows the idea of getting knocked down. And how do you come back from that?

We were just talking about this yesterday. We were starting to wonder, do some people.

Is it effortless for them to be good?

Or like perfect?

We interviewed someone and this boy was so fucking sweet. Not only does he go to church, he loves going to church and he loves dancing and saying, and I'm just going like, is it that easy for you to be? good? I got to fucking get into some stuff. Are you battling it like I am?

My concern would be people like that. They haven't found the words to share their shit.

But can we maybe make a little space for the notion that, yeah, for some people it's kind of easy. They're not really driven by a lot.

I think it's a spectrum. I think we sort of decided it was a spectrum of effortlessness.

Like, I get a terrible idea once an hour. I don't know where you're at, but like, I think it's something that's not good for me to do once an hour.

I think a lot of people, maybe not once an hour, friend. He's pretty hot on the spectrum. I would say. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I also think a lot of it is highly predictable by your childhood. Like if you grew up in a lot of trauma, a lot of action, a lot of fucking chaos, a lot of arousal, a lot of adrenaline. Guess what? I want to get into some shit. I get bored easy.

Yeah.

Like. I'm kind of drawn to like, oh, what's going on over there? Someone's getting their ass kicked. I got to see this. But you know, like I need to see the shit.

I mean, 7-ish.

Yeah, there we go.

I think it's probably pretty typical.

But I think the earlier in your life that you can talk it through, like share it with people in your world who can say, you know what? You're on a 10.. We probably should get you some help.

Or like, let's get you down to maybe 8..

Or find outlets for you.

And again, I have done that, right? I've been sober for a long, long time and I go to A and I go to therapy. But I'm just saying hourly, I got to walk past these thoughts. Yeah. Where in L.A.

I grew up in Sherman Oaks. Woodman Avenue was my spot.

Uh-huh.

I went to a private school called Pinecrest Prep. They've torn it down. It's right down the street from Notre Dame High.

Your mom and dad got divorced very early. Then Ira shows up.

It was just my brother and I and my mom. My mom was really concerned about raising a young man of color in this country by herself. She made a decision to send him back to Belize, where my uncle was. So it was just my mom and I. For a long time, which had its own challenges.

Retired, right? From the post office.

Yeah, military. He spent many years, he's Navy. We moved out to Palmdale. Palmdale now is different than Palmdale then. Then it was a real suburb of L.A.

What ages were you in Palmdale?

From five until Ira passed.

Eighty-seven.

Okay, so I was twelve. That's when we moved from Palmdale back to Sherman Oaks.

Could have been a blessing, though, because you got to go to this school. That would have been a hell of a commute.

Yeah, but my mom was commuting. We were living in Palmdale. And she was working in Beverly Hills. So she was going back and forth. Which was great, because Ira was retiring.

You guys were close.

Yeah, very close. When he passed, I was a bit in shock. Because my biological dad chose not to be in the picture.

The part of your story that, to me, feels a little underexplored. Is just the role of maleness. Dad's not there. Ira's there for a minute. We can rely on him.

I've explored it a lot more in therapy than in anything else.

You're going through puberty. You just lost the one male figure in your life. That's been pretty consistent and loving and supportive. This is a very disruptive junior high. It's already too much going on.

And then you have a biological father. Who's very capable of being present in your life. And chooses not to. And is an asshole. And I don't get it.

Really quick. In your 12 year old mind. It would not have been hard to blame mom for a lot of this stuff. Dad's gone. I don't know.

But I don't think that that was my reality at all. I was just a shitty little teenager.

Well, you were struggling.

And you were taking it out on.

You were hurting. Yeah.

It was bad. But I'm just so grateful to have Ira. Even for the short amount of time in my world. Because he was a lover of sport. We had season tickets to the Dodger games.

The dream.

My brother's five years older too. No matter what he said. If he included me, I would have jumped off the fucking skyscraper.

All of his friends are his age. And he's picking his little sister. He's doing it. Which means that he, in his mind, knows. This is how I'm going to win.

Right. She brings something to the table here.

Signing up for track. And soccer. And realizing. I'm really good. And I love it.

You recognize that.

Yeah. From our little. We call this game Pickle. Do y'all know what that game is? It's like just staying away from the ball.

You're blasting boys your age too. Right?

But it's not a thing. It was just like. You're winning. Right? I was with my brother.

Yeah. It's the norm.

It's the norm. And I remember my first competition. A lot of times in the rounds. You get to the finals based off of your time. Not off of your place.

Right. Because I was ahead.

I was winning.

So I just assumed. You, Usain, bolted it. Right.

Or Mary Jones did. Right.

I don't know who this other guy is. That's what I'm talking about.

He was pretty famous for looking over his shoulder. the last 10 yards. I'll just say.

In 1984, we didn't have the resources to go to the actual games. But back then, they used to parade the athletes through the streets prior to it. So I got to see the Carl Lewis's and the Jackie's. And then that summer, sat in front of the TV and watched it. And knew that that's what I needed to do.

The Olympics generally is so foreign to all of us. It's always on the other side of the planet. And it seems so untouchable. And for it to be in your city and on TV is kind of a unique thing.

I agree. It makes it reality. Yeah. Yeah. It's not just like a dream.

And nine. And was it going to always be track and field? Because you obviously became an incredible basketball player at UNC. Did you guys win a championship?

Yeah, my freshman year.

As a basketball player. So that was just more stuff to do. But was the singular focus track and field?

In 1984, girls basketball, women's basketball, wasn't a thing. There were greats of the sport. I don't want to downplay the Cheryl Millers who were competing, but they would have to go overseas. It wasn't on TV. So when I saw greatness, I thought, OK, this is going to be my sport.

I wanted that, too. And I think Monica did, too. But we were watching going like, yeah, I mean, we want that in the same way. we want to walk on the moon. That's never.

And then I was doing couch beam where you like, do beam on the edge of the couch. And then my mom was like, oh, I guess we'll put you in gymnastics. And I was like, I think this is where we're going for me. I am going to end up there. And then, like two weeks in, the coach teacher was like, you would be so good if you weren't so old.

I thought you were going to say. she said you would be so good at equipment management.

No, although I would. And I would take that with pride.

I also have a funny gymnastics story, because there were three sports growing up that I adored. There was track, it was soccer, and it was gymnastics. I was too tall for gymnastics, even at that point. And I remember a beam routine that I was doing, and it changed the trajectory of my gymnastics future.

Did you fall on your vagina? I did. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Oh, it's called a straddle?

Well, like you, straddle the beam with a fall. It's not good.

Never, ever want to experience that again.

I'm inclined to tell Marion our Armchair Anonymous story.

Oh, I thought you meant catch him by the pussy.

She became a national champ. a year later. She was a high flyer.

Or is that the one that they throw you on? Yeah.

And I said at one point, do they ever accidentally catch you by the pussy? And she said, nonstop. You're constantly getting caught by the pussy. Yeah. And I said, well, maybe Trump was just like a gym.

He was asking a cheerleading question.

Maybe he said catch him by the pussy, not grab him. Maybe it was like we misunderstood.

Oh, my God.

It was almost unlistenable, this thing. She fell in a movie theater, and somehow...

There was an edge or something, and she like, oh, my God.

Dropped a couple feet.

One leg like fell off the edge, and so she slammed her vagina, vulva, on the corner of a step, basically.

That's a long drop.

It ruined her whole vagina.

She did major medical damage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like permanent. Permanent vagina damage. It was...

And she has the ultimate story in every cocktail party. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, she does. Because nobody will ever up that story.

Oh, my God.

The only problem with that story, when you tell someone, I've had a bone transplant out of my hip, or I got a bunch of metal in my shoulder, you tell the story, and they go like, oh, yeah, let me see it. So weirdly, you've got this story, and then like, it would be very inappropriate.

Can I see? Can I see your scar?

What are we talking about here? Anyways, we've taken you down way too far of a path. But you had a vagina ending, career, ending, genesis, yes, yes, yes, twofold. Okay, so you're great in high school. Do you go to UNC on like a full ride?

Yeah, well, by that point, you know, at 15, I made my first Olympic team. Oh, you did? When you were 15?.

I didn't know that.

And I mean, by that point, I was just crushing the competition. Made my first Olympic team, opted not to go, simply because I wanted my first Olympic experience to be one that... So, when you're in the relay pool, and this is appropriate, because I don't know if y'all watched any of the track and field trials, because the Olympics are coming up in a little

bit.

So they have all these trials right now, with the different sports on these people needing to make the team. If you make the team in the sprints, the top six in the finals, get to go to the Olympics and be part of a relay pool. The relay pool is a group of people that the coaches can choose from who they want to put on the track for the prelims, for the semis, and for the finals. They could choose anybody they want.

Are those different than alternates? Or is that similar?

They don't use alternates that much in the sport. In the individual events, there will be an alternate that goes, if you're not top three, maybe they'll take a fourth if a third gets hurt or something. But with the relay pool, I didn't feel as a 15-year-old that if and when the relay team won gold, I would have gotten the gold, even if I didn't compete. I had so much confidence that I knew that when my time came, that I was going to win. When there was another opportunity in four years, I was going to be there and I was going to win.

Can you imagine, Monica, at 15, knowing you're going to win? Knowing you're the best? At 15, I'm still like, I'm hoping I'm funny enough to do this.

But it's almost the perfect age, because you don't know enough yet to have doubt. You're young enough to feel, yeah, I'm the best and I'm definitely going to make it to the next Olympics. Because an older person would say, I mean, I'll probably make it to the next Olympics, but things could happen. Barring an injury. Exactly.

You're feeling invulnerable and bulletproof.

Even at another level for me, just because, not even 15, at nine, at 10, at 11 and 12, I was unstoppable in my drive to be great. My mom talks about it all the time. She needed to put me in an environment where I would grow and just be poured into. So the coaches, even at an early age, were hand-chosen by my mom. I was in clubs, but even the track club, it was hand-chosen to make sure that the people, the coaches, the other athletes, these were people that had a similar mindset.

And was the prerequisite that they were going to challenge you endlessly?

That I was going to be protected from overrunning, be taught how to do it correctly. I was never the type who needed motivation. I was the one at the door, if I need to be at practice, waiting. I was not going out the night before. I wasn't doing anything from nine until now.

How about boys in high school?

No.

And is that because you were so focused, or are you incredibly intimidating for young boys at that age? How do you explain that?

I was incredibly focused. I didn't know then, but my interest was not in boys.

Okay. So you liked girls, but there was nothing you could do about that.

Yeah, and it wasn't a thing then for me, especially in my culture. Even now, there are certain circles you still have to tiptoe in regards to who you love and who you are. And it wasn't a thing. It certainly wasn't a thing in my household.

And you were so busy, there was no reason to think about it.

I was with friends who liked boys, and I would go along with it, but I'm like, they're just like, ugh. They look like they're trouble.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're kind of the worst. I mean, you just call it what it is.

You heard him earlier about us. Yeah, yeah.

We're a plague on this planet. But we build good bridges and shit. Yeah. You need us occasionally.

I was just going to like... No pun intended. I was goal-driven. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then graduated, I went to Rio Mesa High School, which is in Oxnard.

Not a little. Considerably cheaper.

And that's when they were at the sports arena, which was awesome, because there used to be a big indoor competition there called Sunkiss Indoor Invite. Where the best runners from around the world would come there and compete. Anyways, I really have roots in this area, so it's nice.

Yeah, seeing Lakers game at the Forum, the shitty little band playing at top, I loved that.

And you know, I've been to games wherever they play now.

It was Staples, now it's called something else.

Those seats suck.

They suck when you're anybody over 5'5". I don't know how tall.

I'm 5'0". It's going to be great for me. You love those seats. You feel like box seats.

Yeah, exactly. But just starting to fall in love with that sport. The timing was perfect, because by that point, my popularity in the sport of track was big. I was young. I was athletic.

Crazy, you had that foresight.

My mom also was like, there's something special about my daughter, and if she wants to do another sport, it will only benefit her in the long run.

She's so brilliant. So why did you get drawn to UNC? Michael Jordan.

Best basketball team.

That, and USC is here. Stanford's here. UCLA. I grew up going to all kinds of events, camps, everything at these schools. But I didn't feel that I could make my mark in the sport of basketball here in California because I was already known for track.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

A few years. So my freshman year, we won the title. I was a freshman point guard there.

Did you play a lot?

Oh, I was a starter.

How did that feel compared to a track victory? Because what's interesting is, I think there's pros and cons to all these things. When you're doing an individual sport, it's you and you get to own all that. But then in defeat, it's just you. And a team's kind of nice that you can share that.

I was satisfied in both areas. Track, for me, it was easier. I succeeded in the sport of basketball earlier on in my career just because I was so physically gifted. I was faster, I was stronger, I was more mature physically. But the challenge of it, and I love challenges, was that skill-wise, like I had to work on stuff.

And you got to run the offense, your point guard.

Correct. And so when I got to Carolina, because I was 5'10", 5'11", six feet in my media guide.

Yeah, that was very, again, advanced thinking.

All my mom making the decision to have me change schools, put me with a coach that would be able to develop me. She's like seeing this. Wow.

She's like orchestrating this.

Can we back up for half a second? Your biological dad, was he an athlete? Yeah, I don't know. Was mom an athlete?

If mom had been given opportunity, she would have been incredible. But I know very little about the dad side. When my biological father passed away in 2001, and I came back here for the funeral, I met family members that I'd never met, who were sitting behind me.

All wearing NBA rings. In the pew, right?

No, sitting behind me in the pew, asking for my autograph. Oh, wow. That's a whole other shit show. But so I got to. Carolina, sat down with the head coach.

Perfect name for a nose bullshit coach, Hatchell. It's almost Hatchell.

Yeah, Sylvia Hatchell. She's now a Hall of Fame coach. But she said, you're going to be my point guard. And I'm like, have you seen my ball handling skills? The great Billy Moore, who was the UCLA women's basketball coach here for many years, she would come out to my high school to recruit me.

Forgive my stereotyping, but are you not meeting now other women on this team that might also like women?

Still got to understand, this is 1993, 1994.. There's still a stigma in women's sports. I can remember my college coach, they would never do it now, but almost requiring the players on the team to go to her church. And there was one on every corner. Yep.

So, when you meet CJ, he's a coach on the track team. He's a shot putter. How does that evolve if you're not interested in dudes per se?

I showered with attention, and he's a bit of a rebel. I had broken my foot my sophomore year in college and I couldn't do any sport. It was the first time that I ever did not have a physical outlet.

You weren't getting fulfilled by that.

And that was all that I was.

How'd you break your foot?

First time was playing basketball. Then the second time I was training for track, and brie broke it and bent the pin and all that. So I had a red shirt. So technically, I only competed three years in college and, Coach Hatchell, when I made the decision to go ahead and graduate, she's like, you, sure you don't want to go to grad school? I was ready, though, at that point, to start my track career.

Also, mom was very managerial. at that point. She had really made all these great decisions.

But then you get to college and she would say, that's not right. Growing up, I was always little Marion. My mom was also Marion. So she was big Marion. And you don't want to hear it.

Yeah.

And now I'm in college and I really don't want to hear it.

I'm an adult.

Yeah, I'm big Marion.

Yeah, I'm big Marion now.

Bitch, I'm fucking four inches taller than you.

I'm big Marion.

So yeah, met him. I couldn't play basketball. I couldn't run track. Frustrated with everything.

Your world's been taken from you. This is the second time, kind of. And we probably didn't deal with it the first time.

And started to get attention.

And from someone in sports. Then you're still connected to it, even though you're not active in it.

Oh man, to be that age again, never. I would never. People ask like, what age would you like to go back to? I would love to go back to my 7, 8, 9, 10 year old self. There is a time from 14 to 28..

Okay, I don't know if I've figured this out from all the stuff I've read about you. But when's the first dicey thing happen? Is it in college? Because I guess one of my curiosities would be, well, A, the male component, which we're talking about, and I find very interesting. But also, you're so clearly dominant.

During that time, when even just to start the relationship with him, which was taboo.

He had to resign as a coach, right, to date you.

And this whole idea of like, all right, well, I'm a rebel.

Exactly, like we're doing this crazy thing.

Follow my heart, or whatever that was.

Also talk about a love bomb. This guy conceivably gives up his position and his career to be with you. That seems like a very big... Offering. Yeah.

Yes, but now an almost 50-year-old woman looking back, making the choice after I decided to graduate in 1997, wanting to dedicate my world to realizing my dream of being the fastest woman in the world and realizing my dream of becoming of an Olympian, diving straight from college life to training. And I hadn't. My focus in college really was basketball, with a little sprinkle of track, because I was under a basketball scholarship. So they got all of my time. Because we were such a successful basketball program, we went always into March madness.

Oh, wow. But were you winning when you were competing?

Well, it was so limited. Very few people, especially now, are a dual sport athlete. Right.

Yeah.

It's almost unheard of now. Maybe there's a football player who will run track. There's one. But not even those that aren't super successful.

Not at that level.

No. So I wouldn't start track until late into the season. There were injuries. There was frustration. I put on some weight because it's a different type of training.

Wow.

There was no time to catch my breath. And with that, everything started coming my way. This was in 1997, three years prior to the games.

Right. So when the 96 Olympics happened.

I was injured. I had broken my foot. So potentially I had hoped that would be my first real games, because I made the team in 92.. And then 96 was going to be my coming out party.

No wonder you were depressed. Like you missed. Yeah. You're injured. You fucked up your hair.

No, I'm kidding.

It was actually a nice do.

And I look back at pictures. I was like, I was really going through it.

We immediately think of Britney Spears shaving her head. Yeah. It's kind of like one of the signals before some real shit hits the fan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

I don't. I am in the midst of training. He trains hard. He's successful. It's all part of it.

And you're 22, 23.. Right.

And during that time, there was just starting to be a lot of talk in the news about tainted supplements. Athletes were going into the GNCs and because what they were taking was not being researched and dissected. They were all kind of like stuff that just happens to be in it.

Back then, like a Fedrin, was in a lot of over-the-counter stuff. Yeah, there was a lot of shit. GHB was on sale there.

I remember us knowing the things that I was deficient in and doing the GNC runs during that time. That was, everyone was doing it. But because then I was at another level in the sport, I needed to be like super cautious of that. And so that's when, after I graduated, I hired a specialized coach and the team of people, we determined that I couldn't just do the GNC anymore. We were risking too much.

Also, I want to go into this conversation with you. knowing where I stand on it. I'm in no judgment. I'm more deep interest of it. And I want to point out that, yeah, there's some kind of arbitrary lines in the sand with all this stuff.

I agree. And specifically with me, 22 year old woman who you just tell me I just want to run fast. The mindset is there. You just tell me how to train what I'm deficient in so that I can just be OK. I surround myself with people.

Right.

I have a manager.

And you know, your competitors have a team. So you probably have some assumption that whatever they're doing, I'm now doing.

Well, you just give it up.

I no longer know, because I hired someone to know and they're just taking care of it.

Right. So I'm just like, this is good. They know my stance. The whole point of this, and we'll get into this part of it. People are like, oh, she's a cheater.

Yeah, it retroactively erases everything. It's very punitive and it's a very strong position. Yeah.

We can just go back to specifically when poor decisions started to happen.

Yeah, because there's got to be the moment where you're like, huh, I'm not sure about this.

No, really. During that time, they knew my stance on everything.

You were like, I don't want to be pissing hot in the Olympics. Correct.

That is why I hire this company to make sure. And so when I'm taking stuff, I am confident that whatever I'm taking is what I need. I've had my blood work done, like all that. We all have deficiencies. And even more so, if you're an athlete, you have to bring all your levels to a certain space.

Well, we've already established. you've had this mindset since 15.. Like, yeah, you think you're a champion. Yeah. So you're not shocked when you're proving to be a champion.

And it's not an overnight decision that I was going to attempt to win five medals. This was in 1997, three years prior to the Games, where I had already set goals. And I remember, in a press conference in Sweden, and some reporter asked me, so what are your goals? Do you want to make the Olympic team? And I'm sitting there as like a 21 year old, like, yeah, and I'm going to win five gold medals.

Yeah. Almost offended. Yeah.

I say that because this was not an overnight phenomenon. Like, I'm going to win. Like, this is in 97.. So my training, my approach to it all, my focus level needs to be tunnel vision. There's no distractions during that time.

Four times in a row.

During that time, hearing him and the news and not ever seeing anything that was different than anything I had done, and knowing that I'm not doing anything wrong and he's my husband. I believe that he works hard and I'm going to defend him, because this is now like they're trying to get him. Right. And ultimately then trying to bring me down with it as well. So I defend him.

And you had been tested and you had passed everything.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every week, all kinds of tests. I'm the best in the world.

Did you pull him aside separately and were you like, what's going on?

Yeah, good question.

Well, I remember the morning that it came out or that we were alerted.

Can I add, he had a knee injury. So at first he's not going to compete because he has a knee injury. He could have coasted on that.

But then, when it came out, I mean, I talked to him. He's like, no, I mean, we're in the same circles. The company that we hired makes his stuff. And my team asked me, my attorney, how are we going to approach this? Right.

Yeah, yeah. You were perfect for it.

Even with that, in the articles, it's just a small paragraph.

I was 25 in 2000,, as were you. And I watched the whole thing. Don't remember one iota of the husband that didn't even know about that. Not till years later did that all kind of get rebrought back up. When do you know he is willfully participating?

When we got back to the States and I had my media tour and it was just insane. I started to sense with him. there was a disconnect, not jealousy, but there was just something that was odd.

When both people have the same dream and one person is achieving that dream, even if you're the most benevolent, generous person, you are reminded second by second that you haven't accomplished your dream.

And on top of that, his career is stalemated. If not, it's over.

In a very public fashion, right?

Yeah, again, it wasn't one. It was four tests for non or whatever. A big one.

Yeah. So not that I was then convinced, but I was getting closer to. something is not lining up here and there's no love connection. There's no anything anymore. And I'm having some suspicion about all of this.

Was he controlling? Because I would imagine, as you got shinier and shinier, there would have been an impulse for him to want to dim your light a little bit out of fear of losing you. Insecurity.

It's hard to say yes, but looking back, I have friends and family members that were like, we couldn't get to you. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to make it sound like I was locked in a...

No, it can be on a subtle level.

And on top of that, he is a big personality, and loud and strong and big.

He's enormous.

And intimidating. Yeah, in 01, I was just like, I don't want to do this anymore. For the first time, needing to take ownership of my business and my world, and without a man or a person.

Is it fair to say he kind of just picked up where mom left off? He was a coach in a sense, and he had a lot of opinions.

Yeah, I would say so. I had a four year gap from being under my mom's umbrella in college. But again, I'm a college athlete. So you have your coach there and your people there. And 2001, for me, was a very liberating year.

First woman to ever get five medals in track and field in the Olympics. Your legend status at 25..

I like to say, though, during that time, I was on such a wave. It sounds like a wonderful thing. But I look back and see this wave that I was so far away from reality. I was out in the ocean, where I had surrounded myself with people who were constantly just telling me how great I was. Like they were my yes people.

Yeah, well, they're on the payroll.

Right? Anything I said was awesome. Like what a great idea that is. The friends and the family members that could see through it all. I would distance myself with them.

Yeah, yeah. It's a very isolating. It's where you're getting all this public adoration you dreamt of. And then you're getting lonelier and lonelier. It's very confusing.

I'm still just dealing with childhood shit that I just never had resolved. And it's just a lonely time. And so then I enter another relationship with another track and field athlete. And again, getting caught in that wave and getting pregnant in 2002.. Having to make a decision, right?

Yeah, so this is huge. You're coming off this experience in 2000 and in four years, presumably you're going to want to go back and get five golds next time. Getting pregnant cannot be a part of the game plan.

I think most people in the United States think that track and field athletes compete only every four years.

Right, right, right. When we see them. Oh, they're back.

The maturity of the big competitions in Europe are throughout those four years.

Like it's huge.

It's the NBA season in Europe. To make that decision. I mean, I was excited about it. I wanted to have kids. Timing wasn't great, but my oldest was born in 2003..

Oh, yeah. Life would be so easy. Can't do it, though. We can't do it. No, I can't.

I can just remember her saying like, what?

This dude. Also in the middle, we're going to the Olympics in a year and a half. Yeah, if I was your parent.

You just ended one. Why?

Ended one with a personality. And this guy's very. Tough time for me.

Were you worried at that point? Like, I've lost a year of training in the way I need to. When did you start knowingly go, we got to amp up what we're taking?

There is not a lot of research, even now, with female athletes who've been at the top of sport. Going through childbearing and how to get back to the top of the sport. I mean, you have a few arena, but there's no book. There was definitely a concern with that. And at that point I had distanced myself from my circle.

Because can I point out something? This happens in bodybuilding, right? Like these natural bodybuilding competitions. You can use steroids and all kinds of different banned substances. For months and months and months prior, go off during the event and then resume after.

Never did I say, okay, that's my option. With me, it was all of the areas in my life that are lacking. I'm going to make sure that weekly I'm getting supplement shots and hire a company who's going to create this product.

Is this Balco at this point? Correct. There's a documentary on Balco. It's so fascinating.

I haven't watched it. You haven't. They reached out to me for comment.

It's led by this guy, Victor Conte. And boy, what a guy. He was, Barry Bonds. This whole scandal ends up, the feds ultimately invade Balco.

That's your claim to fame. Like, dude, let's find something else.

Yeah, that guy's a bummer.

But 2004,, I'm going to train hard. Nothing is really changing in terms of different supplements. But I am now on a regimen.

You're getting shots and stuff.

It's nothing where I would be scared to take a test. I am still the most tested athlete in the world. And 2004, for me, was a disappointment. I made the Olympic team and I did fairly well, but not what I wanted. I attribute that to just a rough few years.

Yeah, well, you had a baby in the middle of all that.

I don't know the specific year, but during that time, there was just a lot of stuff in the news about athletes and performance enhancing drugs. I get the call. Federal investigators called me in and they wanted to just talk to me about any knowledge that I might have about anything in the sports. Right?

So stressful.

We kind of knew that it was going to happen because they were inviting all the top athletes.

Tim, the father of your first child, he's embroiled in all this as well.

Yeah, well, we're part of the same training program.

Yet again.

It's a repeat.

And so I see, on one hand, when people do their subtle assessments of my career and they're like, I see this pattern. You're in a relationship with this dude and this happens. And you're in a relationship with this dude and this happens. And you're part of this training group. I see it and I get called in there.

I've been doping. Yes.

And if I tell them that I know it, that I've taken it.

Your entire world goes on the toilet.

It's going to be gone.

So what do I do? Could I have said, OK, pause? Can I go and talk to my attorney?

That would have been a good move. in retrospect. It would.

But also, then you're like, then what does that look like? Who would know what to do?

You're in a movie now.

This is an impossible situation. In that split second, hell. no. And in my head, I'm also like, but I've passed every test.

Yeah, you're probably in denial. I've been tested.

No, I don't know what it is. I've never taken it. They just get more and more upset to the point they just call it. And I did not even at that point tell my counsel. Like, nobody needs to know.

You're going to compartmentalize this.

Yeah.

And you're going to put it in a little tiny room in your head. And then you're just never going to talk about or think about it again. And I'm training.

I'm still being tested. And I'm still winning races. But at this point, my son was one. My issue, let's go back to that word, was that when they reached out to me and my counsel, at that point, I had nothing to hide. And so they presented what's called a queen for a day letter.

It won't be brought up. It's kind of like you haven't been read your Miranda rights and you're going to talk off the record. None of this can be brought into trial. Yeah.

So I talked with my counsel. We signed the letter. The little that I know about all of this legal stuff, if I was to admit to lying, then the shit is really going to hit the fan. So I'm going to hold on to this lie. And I'm going to hold on to this lie.

Here's where it starts.

This is where it starts. So at this point, let's say it's 2005, 2006.. My oldest son is now a real human. They're not a baby anymore. And they're running around and they're getting into trouble and they're making poor choices.