528: Petro, the Documentary

It's currently 34 degrees, feels like 36, but I'm underneath a fan and enjoying my time away from Bogota. So, of course, thank you to everyone who's tuning in and listening. Thank you to everyone who's tuned in, of course, to the recent episodes. We repeated an episode last week. It is the summer holidays.

We are allowed to go back over a few episodes. We talked to Yoan Grillo, who is the author of Blood, Gun, Money, and an investigation into the enormous black market for firearms that comes through Latin America. That's his book. Previous to that, we talked to my friend Simon Winograd and Irvin Liz about their coffee cultivation in Cauca and how that is affected by the conflict at the moment. And, of course, previous to that, we were talking to David Arrowsmith, author of a new book called Narco Ball, Love, Death, and Football in Escobar's Colombia.

So I'd love to hear what you think of all these things. What do you think of these episodes? Thank you to our new signups on patreon.com forward slash, Colombia Calling. Always great to see you there. And, of course, remember to Google Emily Hart and Substack, and you can follow all of her news there, the Colombia briefing, and anything else that she produces will always be put up there when they are open to the reader.

So we've got a lot of stuff to go on. We're talking about this week. We're talking about the documentary that was aired in several independent movie festivals, the documentary called Petro by Sean Matteson. And, of course, yes, well, it's controversial, and we discussed this with the director himself, Sean Matteson, who is up there in Brooklyn, but talking to us about the reception, talking to us about what Gustavo Petro, the president, is like behind the scenes. And, of course, the experiences they had shadowing him for roughly a year before bringing out the documentary.

So very interesting times. And you'll have noticed that Gustavo Petro's, well, depending on what you read, his approval ratings have climbed up from the mid-30s to the upper 40s. If you read government-backed news agencies, he's over 50 right now. So very interesting times, of course. And we'll be watching what's going on on the 28th of July in Venezuela.

We'll be watching that very closely because, of course, it affects us here in Colombia. And if you want to talk about that or listen more about that, go back to episode 519, in which we speak to Ana Milagros Parra in Venezuela, who has herself been threatened by the regime of Nicolás Maduro there. And she's a political scientist and very much in the know. And she gives us a very big and insightful look at what's going on in Venezuela. So go back and check out episode 519..

Or, of course, flick over to the other podcast. I host, the Latin News Podcast, because this week we speak to political scientist, doctor, professor, doctor of political science, Javier Corrales. And that's the Latin News Podcast and all of the traditional platforms, YouTube, Spotify. iTunes. And you can hear more about the Venezuelan elections there.

Interesting times, especially with what's going on in the United States. So don't go away. We'll be over with the Colombia briefing with Emily Hart and then back with Sean Matteson discussing his documentary called Petro. Thank you again. Bye, bye.

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I'm Emily Hart, and these are your headlines for this week. This Saturday, the 20th of July, Colombia celebrated 214 years of independence, as well as the start of a new legislative term. in Congress. President Gustavo Petro gave a speech announcing three key aims for the period, an agrarian reform, transformation of the National Land Agency, and a bill to facilitate investments in housing, agriculture, export industries, and popular economies. The government also reiterated its focus on passing its health, labor, and education reforms.

Additionally, Petro apologized for a corruption case involving the National Disaster Risk Management Unit, the UNGRD. He took responsibility for the appointment of Almedo López, director of the unit, who has admitted to directing public money to bribe congressmen in exchange for votes in favor of government bills. This is a corruption scandal which has been rumbling on for months. after Sneider Pinilla, a former UNGRD official, reported that the government had paid millions in bribes to help pass their social reforms. López himself made statements this week implicating Finance Minister Ricardo Bonilla in offering contracts in exchange for approving loans, claiming that one of the contracts was to finance guerrilla group, the Ejército de Liberación Nacional, the ELN.

This week, the Colombian Supreme Court opened an official investigation against nine congressmen regarding this alleged corruption, including several government ministers, outgoing president of Congress, Iván Námez, and outgoing president of the House of Representatives, Andrés Calle. President Gustavo Petro himself has now been summoned by the court to testify, as have the Minister of Health and the Secretary of Transparency. Meanwhile, a hard drive, a memory stick, and a computer, all potentially carrying evidence implicating officials, were reported missing this week. Meanwhile, the UNGRD itself is in deep financial crisis, reporting a lack of the necessary funds to prepare for the arrival of La Niña, a weather phenomenon due to bring heavy rainfall between August and September. A projected 550,000 families will be affected and 7 billion pesos still needed.

The Colombian government has now ended the ceasefire with most factions of the Estado Mayor Central, the EMC, a FARC dissident group led by Commander Iván Mordisco. The ceasefire with the other remaining fronts has been extended until the 15th of October. Members of the EMC who remain at the dialogue table sent an open letter this week, claiming that factions loyal to Mordisco are instigating confrontations in Putumayo, Caquetá, Guaviare, Meta, Huila and Tolima. The letter expresses concern that Mordisco's personal whims could lead the country to a new civil war. Also, this week, the EMC published what seemed to be a threat to the COP-16 climate conference due to take place in Cali in October.

Factions also kidnapped a tourist in Jamundí, 10 minutes from the city. The Colombian government has now made assurances to the United Nations that the conference will be safe and the New York Police Department has pledged to support the conference's security. The Ombudsman's office has warned that recruitment of minors by armed groups in Colombia is on the rise and that half of the children and adolescents recruited are from indigenous groups. While in 2023 the office registered 184 cases already this year, there are 159 reports. Due to underreporting, the figures are likely to be even more serious.

67% of the children recruited are boys, 33% are girls. 79% of the 159 cases for the first half of this year were reported in Cauca. Adding to the stories of violence which emerged following the Copa America men's football final in Miami last week, in which the Colombian team played, Ramón Ezerún, head of Colombia's football federation, along with his son, was arrested in Miami, accused of violence against security guards. Both men were charged with battery. At least four private lawsuits for damages have also been lodged regarding the final, at which chaos in the stadium led to violence, delays, and many ticket holders unable to enter the stadium for the match.

Those were your top stories for this week. Thanks for listening. More from me next week, but in the meantime I did want to say a huge thank you to everyone who has supported this news briefing by subscribing. This month marks four years since I started doing the Colombia briefing, and I'm really so grateful to everyone who has signed up. And for those not signed up yet, good news, it is in no way too late.

Head to my Substack, where I'm currently doing a four-week free trial to celebrate the briefing's fourth birthday. That's substack.com forward slash at e-h-a-r-t. Or head to the Colombia Calling Patreon, where you can also subscribe and get the week's top stories as audio and text every Monday. That is all from me for now. Have a great week.

And we're back. This is the Colombia Calling podcast. I'm Richard McColl, as I said previously. This is episode 528.. Incredible as it seems.

This week's very special guest, I believe, is a, I don't know, are you in Brooklyn or in Washington, but it's Sean Matteson.

I'm in New York. Where are you, Sean? You're in New York. All right. Sean Matteson is a documentary maker of some repute.

And why have we got him on? Well, there's a few things that are close to my heart. He's done a documentary about Argentina. Of course, there, he's done one about Guatemala, where I lived as well. I've been out here a long time in the Americas.

And, well, most recently, in my knowledge, he did the documentary on our president in Colombia, Gustavo Petro. It's entitled Petro. And I just think it's a fantastic opportunity to talk about, I think, the man behind the controversy. So welcome, Sean, on the Colombia Calling podcast. Thank you very much.

Tell us the background. You're most welcome. Tell us a bit of a background. You've really focused. You're very young, of course.

You're a documentary maker. This is great.

You tend to focus on, I would say, more socially aware documentaries, certainly in what I've seen on your website. And so you are driven to make a difference.

Yeah. I mean, I think from an early age, I was influenced by my parents, who are... My father is a photographer and my mother is a writer. And they're both... They both care deeply about human rights and have a longstanding engagement with Latin America.

And when I first started traveling in South America, South and Central America as a teenager, and later in my early 20s, I really had my eyes opened by a lot of the social inequity and sort of, you know, the history of economic oppression that has existed for hundreds of years in the hemisphere in different ways. And it manifests differently in different countries. But there is sort of a broken social contract throughout Latin America that, you could argue, dates back to 1492.. So, you know, I think that one of the things that I've endeavored to do with my films, the ones that focus on Latin America anyway, is to reveal certain things about the social or political conditions, particularly to a North American and global audience who might not know very much about it. That's not to say that my films don't also focus on other issues and take place in other countries.

But Latin America has been a focal point for me from an early age. Yeah, I mean, there are a mix of things, but I would say very impacting are the topics that have been chosen in Latin America and, you know, places close to my heart. Which brings us to the crux of this conversation.

The documentary Petro. I mean, first and foremost, how did you get access to him? Because he's not the most overwhelmingly friendly person towards journalists and so on. So how did you get in? I've actually found him to be fairly gracious with journalists, who are doing their job responsibly.

But I originally met Petro in 2007, when I was a college student. I had gone down to Colombia with a friend of mine who went to Tufts University, who knew Petro through his own family. And I met Petro at a time where he was really struggling with, well, he wasn't struggling with, but he was doing a lot of important work, highlighting human rights violations that were taking place in Colombia, particularly as it related to the assassinations of social leaders and people who were affected by paramilitary violence. And so, not having known very much about the situation in Colombia, I learned very quickly that there were a lot of really tragic things happening. And Petro seemed to be one of the people most vocal in terms of blowing the whistle about those human rights atrocities.

And so then, you know, years later, when he decided to run for president for a third time, and it seemed like his polling was favorable, I called my same friend who had originally introduced us all those years ago and I said, you know, do you think you could get me back in touch with him? Because it may be an interesting moment to follow this historic campaign and it would be the first time that a left-wing government would take power in Colombia. So that was sort of the spark. And then it grew organically from there. And I went and met with Petro in person in September of 2021 and pitched him the idea.

And he was sort of lukewarm about it initially. And then, I think, when he realized that we were serious and that we were planning on following the campaign closely, you know, for the better part of a year, he sort of reluctantly accepted.

Probably it's the personal introduction and having met him in 2007.

. I'm trying to think 2007 is that he broke the false positive scandal. Right. I mean, he was very involved in getting that out. then.

I mean, I think, as an opposition congressman, senator, and then becoming mayor, he was very effective in those. So you got your permission to be with him for a year, more or less. I mean, obviously he had the final say on where you'd be with him. And when. Right.

Yeah. I mean, it was not unfettered access. Of course, I would have loved to have had more access. I feel like his campaign team in particular were could be tricky to deal with, because they were always very focused on prioritizing, you know, the radio and TV, which were. they knew we were doing a longer term project that wouldn't come out until after the election.

And so for them, we were sort of the last priority, because their main priority was to get out the vote and to focus on making sure that he was doing, you know, radio appearances and TV interviews and getting eyeballs from voters. Yeah, sure. I mean, to win the election is the priority.

So so tell us, I mean, the day to day following him. What's he like? I've interviewed him once. And in the 40 minutes I was granted, you know, I got an idea and I've been following him for some time. But what was he like?

Because, you know, he, we have to talk about Gustavo Petro. Put him into context. for those people who don't know. He was the first ever leftist president in Colombia's history. A former M-19 guerrilla, you know, spent some time in jail and then was amnestied and worked diligently as an opposition figure through the formal channels, you know, up through Congress, the Senate, mayor, ran for president on the third occasion, was successful.

But he he's as divisive. And I obviously he should not be in the same breath, but he's as divisive in Colombia, as, I would say, Trump in the United States. You either hate him or you love him, really. I mean, what. what was it like to be in his presence for such a long period of time?

Yeah, I mean, he is incredibly polarizing. Sometimes I even wonder how it's possible to hate him as much as people do, just because, you know, the perception abroad or in other places is that he's, you know, he is a leftist, but he hasn't necessarily become what the right wing was saying before the election, which is that he was going to drag the country into oblivion and he would be the next Hugo Chavez or Fidel Castro. And so I think a lot of their talking points have sort of fallen away. And now they've just been happy to kind of block his reforms wherever they can and and try to neutralize his government as much as possible until the next election, when I know that the right hopes to retake the government. But, you know, I think, in terms of what he's like, he's very different in different moments.

When he is behind the scenes, you know, when he's on stage and giving a fiery speech, he's obviously very animated and vocal and can be sort of almost go on the attack. And when he's behind the scenes, he tends to be very pensive and cerebral and quiet. And he often, you know, will just sit and listen to what everyone else has to say, which is something that people used to say about Obama. You know, everyone assumes that he's this, this fiery person who talks over other people, but that's really not the case at all. I mean, I think he, he has a high opinion of his own assessment of a situation or usually, I think, probably believes that he's right.

But to say that he doesn't, his opinion is not informed by listening to others, would be a misguided perception. So I think, you know, he tends to be very guarded and very private. And I think that probably comes from his days as a guerrilla. You know, even when they had the campaign Zoom calls that were leaked back during the campaign and the chusadas and they had all, you know, his staff and various people had said different things on those calls. You'll notice that Petro didn't really say anything on those calls, not because he necessarily had anything to hide, but because it's more that he tends to sort of sit back and listen until he decides to say something.

And usually when he decides to say something, it's on Twitter or, you know, to somebody in his inner circle. But I find it, you know, he is, he's sort of a chameleon. He's not any one, you know, personality at any given moment. I think that depending on where, who you are and at what, when, what mood he's in, he can be very fascinating to talk to because of his command of history, you know, his clear passion and love for the country. I think that one thing I used to say, even to his political opponents, is él tiene la mejor voluntad para el país.

You know, I really actually believe, whether he's an effective president or not, that he really cares deeply about Colombia and wants to change it for the better. Well, you know, I believe that I've had, I've had, interviews with academics from all over the world. And I am the host of another podcast for a company in London, England. One of the academics called Professor Jenny Pierce, who is an academic of some repute. I think she's an investigative professor of Latin American studies at London School of Economics.

She says, you know, I know she comes from a background too, you know, a more liberal background. She's an academic, but she just says, I genuinely believe that at the center of everything, he means to do well. He means well for Colombia. And I mean, there's a lot of, and I'll say it outright, there is a, I mean, very,

it's highly probable that there is a media campaign to ensure negative news surrounding him. And he doesn't help himself, particularly in that front, by making,

by making like outbursts on Twitter or X, or whatever you call it these days. He doesn't help himself by doing these things. And sometimes jumping the gun. And, you know, I had the honor of working for him for 12 days until I was ushered out when he was mayor of Bogota. And it was clear that he wasn't, he wasn't good at delegating.

And so that kind of gets into the point of what you say. He listens to everyone and then does what he wants.

But that said, I'm curious as well about the man behind this mask. As you said, good, fiery speeches. He's a good orator. Just look at that inaugural speech in the Plaza de Bolivar. It was, you know, phenomenal.

And that will be quoted for years to come. And when he gets up and speaks, you want to listen. But I'm also curious because you were there for so long. What's he like in a family setting? With his own family, his kids, and Veronica Alcocer, his wife.

What's that relationship like? Well, I mean, when we were with him in private, with his family, was truly when I felt like he was his happiest. You know, he's a very doting father. Clearly loves his kids. You know, also I could say the same for the attention he pays to Veronica.

And so, you know, I think that it was actually when we were, he was most relaxed when he was at home. And when we found him during those moments, for example, the long sort of master interview that I conducted with him, that is in the film, was at a moment where it was, right after the consulta in March of 2022. And he was in pretty good spirits because they had done well the night before. And so I really felt like when he was at his best was when he was at home and feeling relaxed and feeling like things were going well. And when I saw him, most stressed out were sort of when he was, you know, keeping up with his punishing campaign schedule and going to three cities a day.

And, you know, stealing a few minutes of rest in the car between destinations. I mean, I don't think any other candidate during that campaign went to even a tenth of the places that he went. He was really committed to traveling and trying to convince voters to vote for him during that time period. But I think that, you know, I think his family really grounds him. And clearly the situation with his son has been a difficult one in terms of the legal situation that he's been embroiled in.

But I don't even know what the current status of that is with the fiscalía. But overall, I mean, you know, I think it holds him together.

Yeah. The scandal, I would say, was the money coming from untoward funds, untoward sources, to the campaign, I suppose, of Petra's campaign via Nicolás Petra, who is his son from a first marriage. I imagine that really hurt him. I imagine that it stung. But that was post the election that it came out.

Or was it already coming out when you were with him? No, it was after the election. And I don't believe that Gustavo Petra knew anything about what was going on there. And I also don't know, you know, what the extent of that whole situation was in terms of. was there entrapment by Nicolás Petra's ex.

She clearly, you know, had a deal going on behind the scenes with Simona Group. So, I mean, there's a lot of aspects of that investigation that seem strange to me. But I don't think that it's even worth me offering an opinion on any of it, because it's up to the fiscalía and the attorney general to decide, you know, whether he's guilty. And Petra has been vocal from the beginning about saying that he'll respect the rule of law about his son's fate. So, we'll just have to see how that plays out going forward.

And rightly so. It should be in the hands of the fiscalía. It should be in the hands of the judges. And it's the rule of law. If Nicolás is found guilty, then so be it.

I mean, I would hope that that's always the way. And there are a few more points I want to go through in the documentary itself.

You were there filming when there were gunshots on his car in Cúcuta.

So, actually, we were not filming that moment. That was from 2018.. And that video was taken by Gustavo Bolívar, the former senator, on his cell phone. But we used that moment to demonstrate the history of all of the threats, and sometimes near assassinations, that have happened in Petra's life. And I think he's spent decades dealing with that.

And I think it's sort of almost second nature to him now to have to deal with that. But I think during the campaign there was a real fear that something could happen. And I remember speaking to him in that long interview and him saying, I want to win this election to ensure my safety and my family's safety as well. So he clearly didn't feel like the campaign was a very safe time for him, because he was going out and doing campaign stops. And we needn't look no further than the assassination of Donald Trump from a couple of days ago to know that that kind of political violence is still very much a possibility, even in the so-called first world.

So for it to happen in the developing world is almost an afterthought. And it has happened many times in the past. in Colombia, which is the other thing that we emphasized in the film was the number of leading left-wing candidates who had been assassinated in the past. So that was certainly a harrowing moment. But we can't take credit for filming that.

Oh well, I was wrong on that one. But you weren't the ones to be filming that in any case. But were there any scenes that were said, Petra himself or his team said, you can't use that.

No. They didn't even see the film until it was finished. So they didn't have any editorial input. It was all our own independent project. And actually one of the weirdest or most difficult things about putting this film out in Colombia were the number of accusations that came out, saying that it was paid for by the government or that it was propaganda.

And the irony of that is that we had to really fight to try to raise money to make this film and do it independently. And I feel like we maintained a level of ethical and journalistic integrity that I try to maintain with all of my projects. But one of the things that we had to try to sort of fight against in terms of the PR aspect when the film came out in Colombia was that somehow this was paid propaganda, which is absolutely not the case.

I saw a piece in La Silla Vacía, the well-known online outlet, and it really does accuse you of propaganda and so on. I'm not sure it is, but you had a conversation, you had an interview with that journalist, right? Yeah, I spoke with him. I believe that there is a tendency to be opportunistic about those conversations among certain members of the press in Colombia and in the US. And I would have welcomed a more open debate about that aspect with him, but everyone's going to have their opinion and all we can do is just try to do the work with the most integrity that we can.

Sure. Now, you interviewed one of my, I will say openly, my least favourite politicians, whom I have had the opportunity and the good fortune of being able to appear on an international news panel as an opposing voice to her. We were both invited onto TRT News as an international channel out of Turkey to discuss the peace accords and so on. Fortunately, I was able to, and I will say this outright and with no modesty whatsoever, but I was able to kind of clean the floor with her. But you were able to talk to Maria Fernanda Cabal.

I'd like to know how that went.

It went well. I got in touch with her through her team and I basically explained that we were making a documentary about the election and I wanted to hear her take on the different candidates and particularly, I knew how much she disliked Petro.

I reached out to a number of opposition politicians, including Álvaro Uribe and Federico Gutiérrez and others. I got turned down by a lot of people, but in her case, she at the very least accepted the interview.

She has her opinions and certainly she knows how to get attention in the press and has been very critical of Petro. I wanted to show the other side of the coin, which is this far-right ideology, which has been pervasive in Colombia, but she may be its most vocal proponent to date. It was important for me to show that that existed and that it is a very strong current that continues to pick up steam in Colombia. I would say at this moment in time.

she is, perhaps, before anything has been done, she is one of the front-runners for two years from now. She is definitely mobilizing and she has the backing, with her husband as a big figure as well. She has a big support swell and she knows how to present herself, and she knows how to talk sometimes across as well. in your interview. She presents herself very well.

Yes. Interesting one. She went to university in the US.

Not that there are not incredible universities in Colombia as well, but what I mean by that is she is very connected to her political allies in the rest of the world and has an international network and education. Her ability to, like you said, deliver her message is pretty uncanny. I give her credit, at the very least, for her ability to grab people's attention. Certainly she had mine during the course of the interview.

Did she get in touch after the documentary came out? No, I haven't heard from her team. I can't imagine they would like the film very much.

I don't think it paints her in a bad light at all. For people who dislike Petra, she comes across as the hero in this film.

I would say so. I would say definitely. Before we get back to Colombia, how was the reception of the documentary overseas, internationally? It's been quite good. We had a number of positive reviews in the US when we premiered at Slamdance in Park City, Utah, where we got an honourable mention from the jury for the documentary prize.

We also screened at Morelia in Mexico, where the Mexican press was very interested in the film. We also presented the film at the Havana Film Festival in Cuba, which was fascinating in its own way, given the legacy of the communist government there.

I think that internationally, the reception of the film has been very good. In Colombia, we had our theatrical run at the Cinematheca in Bogota back in April. That was really powerful because of the range of reactions that it generated. But also, people coming up to me and thanking me for making the film feeling like the story hadn't been told in this way almost ever. I think this film and the film Igualada about Francia Marquez.

almost accompany each other in terms of trying to tell a story about the last few decades of Colombian political history, but from a different perspective.

When you were with him, did he ever discuss any of his cornerstone policies? Obviously, I'm pushing it past Total Peace. Did he ever discuss this with you? When we were on the campaign trail, the thing that he most spoke about when we were together were climate change policies. That has been the hallmark of his political ideology for a long time.

He was an early proponent of trying to move away from fossil fuels and into a more sustainable future. When we were spending time on the campaign, I felt like when he wasn't talking about those other major issues, he was really mostly focused on climate change.

I think that he has had varying degrees of success with his climate change policy. I can't speak really to the details of that because I haven't followed it as closely since he was elected. I will say that I can't imagine it's easy for any government to implement reforms with the level of resistance that he's faced in Congress and the Senate, and also with all of the attacks from the news media.

We'll see what the next year and a half, two years holds. I don't know. It's a tough one. He's just had a positive bump because of getting through the pension reform.

One kind of hopes that he might be able to build on this. For me, as a journalist, it is exhausting because he produces so much news.

I'm also interested if, when you were with him, did you feel like sometimes, when he gets on Twitter or he gets up on stage, that he's deliberately poking the bear and needling the opposition, trying to get a rise out of them, because sometimes it feels like he wants that conflict.

That's possible. I can't pretend to know what his motivations are, or whether poking the bear is a strategic thing or whether it's a spontaneous thing that's more emotional. You could ask the same questions about other political leaders, who tend to be... When Trump tweets spontaneously, is it really spontaneous or is it based on a strategy that only he knows behind the scenes?

It's hard to say how calculated it is. Certainly, there have been times where Petro has tweeted about something precipitously.

and then it's generated a negative reaction very quickly or a big backlash. There are times where, I think, in the case of any leader who takes an ex-account too quickly, it's sort of like, is it doing more harm than good? That's sort of a question, I guess.

You were recording, you were following.

Did you feel that the success of the documentary?

really was.

. Did you feel that when he won, you were like, now we have a great product? Did you feel relieved? Yeah, of course. I think that if he had lost, I had a contingency plan to make a different type of film, because we followed a number of political and social leaders around the country for the better part of a year and a half.

I did have sort of a quote-unquote backup plan, but I think him winning at the end did feel like the ending that we were looking for. It would have been interesting. A Rodolfo administration in retrospect, you wonder how different it might have been, because Rodolfo was an outsider candidate and he didn't belong to that Centro Democrático party apparatus. It would have been a very unexpected Colombian government, I think, maybe as different as this one has been, but in different ways.

The feeling of him winning, it felt like, at least for us, some kind of release.

from the whole process, just because I always envisioned the film ending after the election as opposed to continuing the film after he took office. But it would have been powerful as well to have got the acceptance of defeat and another week with him as he sort of plots. Because when he lost the previous election against Iván Duque and he'd still got the highest amount of votes that a left-wing candidate had ever got in history, from day one he knew he was opposition. That was it. He was going to run again in four years.

I think it would have been fascinating to see an evolution again.

Because, for my money, he believes 100% that he represents the government of change. And so, therefore, this would not have been completed without him running again afterwards. He did say that he wouldn't run for a fourth time if he wasn't elected in the third attempt. Which, of course, you could argue that maybe he would have changed his mind. But I do wonder if, after the third time, he would have then pivoted to sort of trying to support someone like a David Racero or a younger politician.

But we'll never know, because he did win the election. I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, he's term-limited, so he can't run again. for this time. He's term-limited. He's talked about the Constituyente in a way of perhaps trying to change the Constitution.

I have great doubts that this would go through. I think even his supporters, a large portion of them, would be against that. There's a reason it's in place. And I don't think it's a very wise thing to do. Rather than try and do your best, therefore, you can get, let's say, a successor elected on a platform as well of change.

I would say that that's the best case scenario for him right now. But I just think it would have been fascinating to spend that year with him. And has there been contact as well since you released the documentary? Actually, believe it or not, no. We were trying to meet with him when we screened the film in Bogota.

But I think he was busy running the country.

I don't have any hard feelings about him not necessarily following up with us. But I do know that he's seen a cut of the film and said that he liked it. And I think in general, going back to him, being a private person, I think it's awkward for him to see himself on screen. And he even said as much in a post on X, where he said, it's strange to feel like I'm watching a story about myself when I feel like I haven't achieved my goals or something along those lines. So I think maybe if I hear from him five or ten years from now, that might actually be better than hearing from him this year.

That's cool. My fear is, and despite the things that he's pushed through, and there have been successes and what he desires to push through, my fear is that anything that?

is good for change and could change the lack of equality in Colombia,

a far right-wing government comes in and undoes it immediately. And we are left with a government that has been symbolically important rather than actual projects on the ground. And that's my greatest fear, is that we are left with four years of, again, sort of treading water, which is what we had under the previous government. before that. I mean, they just weren't wanting to do very much.

And so I think it's very important to see the documentary. Will it be coming out on any of the platforms, any of the screening platforms? Yeah, we signed a distribution deal in the United States with a company called Global Digital. And we are preparing the film for rollout on all of the major platforms like Amazon Prime, Google Play, Tubi.

So it's been sort of a process. We were busy with the festival circuit in the spring, and we signed this deal a couple of months ago. But sometimes it takes a maddeningly long time to get these things sorted out. Luckily, I think, by the end of, ideally by September, it'll be available. Okay.

Well, it must infuriate you to see how many documentaries, how many true crime documentaries are out there, and you can't get yours out there.

We seem to be inundated. Yeah, well, we were aware of the pressures of the market in terms of documentary films. And I think we were really blessed to be supported by a handful of executive producers who put some funding into this project at a time when, you know, other, more traditional sources of funding were not necessarily trying to take a gamble or roll the dice on a political, or a film about the political situation in Colombia. So, yeah. So finally, I will wind this up because I know you're a busy guy, but what's your next project?

I'm working on a couple of different things right now. I'm very interested in climate change and sort of water scarcity in different parts of the world. And I also have a couple of sort of more.

other types of ideas for episodic or TV series. So I'm trying to sit here in Brooklyn and write treatments for new projects. But I'm actually going to be back in Colombia in 10 days, which I'm excited about. So I will be in Bogota and possibly Medellin after that. Somehow, Colombia just keeps pulling me back in.

Well, there's too much here. If you're going to be doing climate change and water scarcity, go head straight to the Guajira. I mean, we need more international exposure on the situation there. Well, I may or may not be in Bogota in 10 days' time, but if you're free for a coffee, I'd be more than happy to invite you to one. Thank you, Richard.

Thank you for this opportunity to chat about Petro, about Colombia. It's been a fascinating run.

And this film was sort of, it took over my life for a year or two, and to look back on it now and be able to talk about it with the gift of hindsight is a really interesting conversation to have. So thank you. You're most welcome. We've been talking to Sean Mattison, documentary maker, who made Petro. There have been other, of course, documentaries that he's got out.

You can see all the links on his website. It's just SeanMattison.com, I think. That's correct, yeah. SeanMattison.com. I think it's pretty good.

We'll put the link to the website in the show notes. And, of course, if you want to get in touch with him, you can get in touch with him that way. One final, final, final thing. Have you had a lot of haters online?

I would say there's been a handful of negative reviews on Letterboxd and some angry messages in my Instagram DMs. But overall,

it's better than if people didn't care or were apathetic. I'd rather have haters than not generate a reaction. So I think we can handle that. Well, I got unfollowed by someone yesterday who said that I had to stop promoting the narco-corrupt left-wing agenda. So,

but you know. Yeah. I think you get a range of reactions and it's like I said, it's better to be relevant than not. So, anyway. Well, again, thank you for your time.

This has been a great conversation. This has also been the Columbia Calling Podcast, Episode 528.. If you want to support the podcast, please go to patreon.com forward, slash Columbia Calling and up there you can sign up and pledge some cash. Of course, Emily Hart, who does the Columbia Briefing, you can follow her on Substack as well. And all of her articles go up there.

She's written for the New York Times, amongst other, the Times, Telegraph, etc. Delayed Gratification Magazine as well. So follow her for excellent, rigorous journalism. I'm Richard McColl here in Mon Posse, Columbia, at the moment. That's why I'm sweating here on camera.

Now I can turn it off, have a glass of water and mop my face. So thank you everyone for listening and goodbye. The Columbia Calling Podcast is sponsored by Latin News, a leading source of political and economic analysis on Latin America and the Caribbean since 1967..

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