Brad Gilbert and the Problem with Perfection
2024-05-21 00:51:51
<p>To be human is to fail – period. And not just to fail once, but to fail a lot. As the author Samuel Beckett said: “Fail again. Fail better.” This saying means a lot to me and my family – so much so that my daughter got a tattoo of it. Why are we, and so many others, so deeply concerned by failure? And if it’s something we all do so often, why are we so afraid of it – especially those of us here in win-at-all-costs America? In this podcast, I sit down with successful, thoughtful people like Ben Stiller, Bette Midler, Sean Penn and more to talk about failure – or what they labeled “failure,” but what was really an unparalleled opportunity for growth and revelation. I even want to delve into my own hardest moments, when I wrestled with setbacks, shame, and fear. We’ll still fail again. And again. But maybe if we fail better, we’ll feel better -- and maybe if we can all laugh together in failure, that's a start.</p>
Wish your favorite TV show had twice as many episodes? We all want more of our favorites. That's why Discover automatically doubles the cashback earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cashback Match. Now, that's a real crowd pleaser. See terms at discover.com slash credit card.
I had a great coach, Coach Burns. He didn't have a first name, Larry. I only knew that later. His first name was Coach. And I mentioned it later in the podcast that he taught me how to care.
And the story that I'm thinking of was, you know, we were, we wanted to win and we were playing our arch rivals and I guess we were ahead and we just, we just kind of blew it. And we lost and we were in the locker room waiting for coach to come in, because we always had the wrap up afterwards.
And it's going to sound totally cliche, and I guess it is, but he came in and just the look on his face, you could tell he'd gone through it, you know, like he, he cared. He didn't care that this was a stupid high school game. This was a gladiatorial contest of the day, you know, and he came in and he just put his hand over his heart and he said, a pint of blood right from here, right from here. Like we lost some blood in that game.
And you know, we all, we start crying, you know, the kids and we're, you know, we're high school boys. We're not easy criers.
And all it was, was that weird little cliche, a pint of blood right from here, right from your heart. And because it was true and it was true because we were, we were believing in him. We were believing in the stakes, the stakes felt high and it was good to suffer like that. And it was good to care, like that. It was, and it was good to bleed like that.
And it doesn't matter that it wasn't really something worth caring that much about, because it was just really the care that meant something.
I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are.
Brad Gilbert is best known as a tennis coach. He's also known as a tennis commentator who comes up with fun nicknames for the tennis players out there. He's coached Andre Agassi, a legend, and Andre called him the greatest coach of all time. I don't know. For me, it's Larry Burns.
For some people, it might be Brad Gilbert. Now he's coaching rising superstar Coco Gauff. He even trained Zendaya for the movie Challengers. He was a great tennis player himself. He got to number four in the world.
He played pro for a dozen years. And I talked to him over Zoom and behind him, I could see all these tennis rackets. I thought they were just rackets, but they turned out to be like game played rackets from great players. So here's that conversation with Brad Gilbert.
Where I wanted to start was, you know, I wanted to, I mean, I've learned so much about you preparing for this. I mean, you know, number four in the world, right? And then an amazing coaching career. Um, how did you get, if you can take me back to your childhood and being introduced to tennis and talking to your father about tennis, how did you get to this relentlessly positive coach that I see in front of me right now?
I had an older brother, older sister, and my dad, when he was, my dad had been 30, had an apartment building, never played tennis in his life. There were some old rackets left there. So he went out and played with my older brother, who was seven, played one time and he comes back and he kind of made this announcement. That's it. We're playing tennis.
And so literally, seriously, these old rackets and presses, that was it. And we started playing and instantly got my brother and sister lessons. And then he was like, you can play or you can sit there and watch. So I think it just grew out of, you know, first of all, I was probably very competitive, hyper competitive. And then you, you want to show your older brother and older sister and your dad that you belong.
So that's kind of how literally my tennis began. And I played my first tournament, I think, when I was like six years old.
Really?
Yeah. So literally I'm 62, about to be 63 this year. I've been playing like basically my whole life. And there hasn't been a moment where I've been bitter towards it.
Right. I also grew up wanting to be an athlete and I was, I was a terrible, terrible loser. In fact, I, you know, stickball is a game we play in New York and I was a pretty good baseball player and I could play with my father's friends. I was good enough when I was like 10 to play with them, but they wouldn't play with me because I was such an asshole when I lost. So I had, I had the competitive spirit in me as well.
But, um, I think I read where your father said, you know, you're going to be, you're going to be a pro and you're going to, you're going to play Davis cup. You know, I was 10 years old.
I really didn't know what that meant. But, David, you know what? I spent my time when I was competing and when I wasn't competing, let's say I was watching a basketball game or football game. I was always thinking about tactics, what somebody was trying to do to win. And when I was playing and playing with other people, I was always, that's all I was ever thinking about was an angle on how to win.
I never was like fixated and defeated by losing. And I was more kind of always thinking about the strategy, on how to find a way to get under somebody's skin or find a way that what I was doing to be more successful. And I think that that's kind of, you know, how I always thought and I wasn't as successful at it, you know, till I got a little bit older and I finally grew, but I think it probably helped me being smaller, but always thinking about a way that I could beat somebody. And I love tactics. So I didn't get like, like you got really upset, you know, nobody likes losing, but I was always questioning myself about my own tactics.
Where do you think that came from? Is it just your nature to, because it sounds like, you know, some people say they fall in love with the game, or whatever. It sounds like you fell in love with the game within the game.
You know, that's probably well said. I think I fell in love with just this one word competing. I love competing. I like trying to take something that someone's trying to take from me, whether or not that was playing one-on-one basketball. I played a million times as a kid, strikeout.
You ever play against one guy, draw a chalk on the wall and you really strike it.
That's, that's stickball. That's, that's what we call stickball. Yeah.
So all of these things that, whatever I was doing, that's what I was always trying to figure out how to win.
And yet I'm remembering something you wrote where you said you made this jump by hitting the ball off the wall for a while. If you could just explain that to me for a moment, because I've got this guy who lives for tactics, who lives for, you, know, for the win. And yet you make this leap at some point by hitting the ball off the wall.
So if it wasn't misting today, I'd have gone and hit on the wall. It's my kids say I have no Zen. It's probably my only Zen now. Um, playing some imaginary tournament, playing some imaginary player on the wall, um, is a great way to expand, you know, how you think and how you deal with pressure. So it was something I just did.
Um, and I probably didn't realize how. it kind of made me a better player, made me more relaxed and, and probably took away my fears.
Can you tell me why or how?
Because, you know, like in your dreams, they're always usually positive. Um, but, like when I'm playing somebody, that imaginary player on the wall, I never imagined I was fucking losing, you know, it's like, it's a good result. And probably the thing that probably made my game made the biggest leap. When I was 18, I was at a junior college called Foothill Junior College. And I couldn't believe all of my teammates were thinking about all the negativity in the result.
on Tuesday, when the match is about Friday, if I lose this match, or if I win this match, or, you know, what coach is going to say about me. And it was all of these things that basically bring yourself down and you worry yourself and what the coach is going to think about you if you lose. And it was like, I didn't have those feelings. I would literally think about, okay, when I play this guy in a couple of days, I'm going to think about tactics right away, right before I go out there and figure out certainly my best way to navigate through this match. I certainly wouldn't be shitting myself on Tuesday for a match Friday, and I wouldn't worry about the result.
I'm going to think about what I can do, what my strengths to my opponent's weakness could manifest, or what my opponent's trying to do to me. And I'm going to make that work for my advantage.
Right. Well, you know, the wall has no weakness. So it was good that you were playing the wall. The wall never misses. No, no.
I promise you, the wall has great discipline. You know, it's like that acting coach that probably, you know, is not going to lighten up on you. And so it's the same. It's like you, just, no matter what, it comes back. But in your mind, if you're playing an opponent, you can just do it.
Like my friend Chris Mullen, who I've known for a long time, said, when I told him the story about the wall, he would tell me about the story of himself shooting free throws by himself, playing that game against another team. And I think it takes a lot of discipline to do one-on-one like that, that you can actually play this game in your mind against an opponent when there really isn't an opponent there.
When you're playing and you get to number four, but you're feeling like I'm not as good as Macro or I never will be, or what is that feeling like?
Honestly, it's like, shit, the dudes in front of me were Becker, Edberg, Lendl. And only Lendl was older than me. Becker and Edberg were much younger. My serve needed to be better. I probably needed to be a little more aggressive and fearless, where I think under pressure, I was a little too conservative.
I was way too conservative. I hated missing. I hated taking risk. And that probably took me as far as I was going to go. And I didn't think by any means that I was a failure.
I mean, literally, when I turned pro, I just hoped I could make a little bit of dough and have a good time. It's like, not everybody can have lead role. I'd have been plenty happy being Ned Beatty. I'd have been happy being the great character actor.
And we all dream of being that, but maybe my skill set wasn't quite that level.
Yeah, that's probably, I'm going to guess, a lifetime of work that you've been doing in that area. Some people are gifted, just naturally. I think they're born resilient. You have kids. I have kids.
You can see the kind of, one child has that gene, that resilient gene, more than another or not. But if you don't have it, and if it's something that you have to deal with loss a lot, like an athlete does, then you have to grow that part of yourself.
Well, first of all, my coach told me when I turned pro that in a 32 draw, every week there's 31 losers. Losing doesn't define you. It's how you deal with each situation and how you learn to move forward. And a lot of times, a few losses can break players, especially can break young players. And you've got to be resilient, and you've got to be willing to understand that tomorrow the sun will rise, and you have to rise with it.
This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Life can be pretty chaotic. One thing that keeps me grounded is therapy. It's been a key part of my routine, helping me manage the roller coaster of daily life. When things get tough, when we feel like we're failing, that's when making time for therapy is the most crucial.
If you've never tried therapy, I highly recommend giving it a go. You never know. Maybe getting to step back once a week with a licensed professional can give you that clarity you've been looking for. BetterHelp is an online platform that makes therapy accessible and convenient. You can do it from the comfort of your own home, on a schedule that works for you.
Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist, and you can switch therapists anytime at no additional charge. if you need to. Never skip therapy day with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash failbetter today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com.
slash failbetter.
The way we approach learning with our kids is crucial to their well-being. Each kid has a unique learning style. Whether they need a boost in a subject or aren't being challenged enough in another, they deserve a customized educational approach. iExcel Learning is an online program covering math, language arts, science, and social studies. iExcel is designed to help kids understand and master topics in a fun way, and it provides positive feedback to keep them engaged.
I love iExcel's approach to learning. They are making a significant difference for kids all over the country. Children using iExcel have seen remarkable improvements in their grades, which is a testament to the program's effectiveness. Nationwide research shows that students using iExcel score higher on tests, too. I really wish I had something like this when I was growing up, because I was a lousy test taker.
What's cool is that a single subscription covers everything from pre-K to 12th grade. iExcel wants to make finding education you can trust as simple as possible. iExcel is used in 95 of the top 100 school districts in the U.S. Make an impact on your child's learning. Get iExcel now.
And Fail Better. listeners can get an exclusive 20% off iExcel membership when they sign up today at iExcel.com slash Fail Better. Visit iExcel.com slash Fail Better to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
If you know me, you know that I am constantly traveling. I was just in Greece for a shoot, and I had an amazing time. But when I came back to the U.S., I was already getting ready for my next trip. To be honest, I don't think I even unpack my bag fully. One thing about traveling that's not so fun, besides having to squeeze everything into your suitcase, is how often it means leaving your home sitting there underutilized while you're gone.
And if you can relate to any of this, then you should definitely think about becoming a host on Airbnb. You've probably heard of Airbnb before. I love them. No matter what kind of trip I'm taking or what kind of stay I'm looking for, Airbnb has the perfect place. And now you can become an Airbnb host yourself.
Instead of leaving your home underused while you're on your next vacation, Airbnb can help you get the most out of your space. It's a fantastic way to earn some extra cash, which, by the way, you can then put towards your next vacation. And don't worry if you think your place might not be perfect. Travelers are often looking for cozy, comfortable places that offer a local touch. Plus, if you're concerned about the time commitment, start small.
List your home for just a few weekends and see how it goes. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com slash host.
You coached some of the greats, Andy Roddick, Andy Murray, Andre Agassi, now Coco Gauff. And you said that you take losses as a coach harder than as a player, which I find interesting. Can you give me an example of that, of taking a loss harder as a coach than as a player?
Yeah, as a coach, I've got a bunch. I mean, but I can give you a few of them that just jump out of the box. Andre, when I was coaching Andre, two brutal ones. The 95 US Open, he had won 26 consecutive matches, had the most amazing summer, and then goes out and just he was a little bit flat in that morning, you know, playing Pete Sampras in the finals of the 95 Open. I could tell.
And I lost that match 7-5. in the fourth. I felt like someone had taken a knife and stabbed me. Then one other one, just a brutal, brutal beat too, was the 2001 US Open quarterfinals, four tiebreakers. I felt like Andre at that moment was the better player.
I felt like if he had won that match, he was for sure going to win the US Open. And once again, Pete played an unbelievable match. No breaks, the entire match. And it came down to the smallest margins. And I felt like, maybe after that one, that was as gutted as I ever was about any match, because I just felt heartbroken for Andre.
And it came down to a few points. And I still think about that match. It's like, you know, it still guts me.
It's on a loop. There's something I found incredible that you said about Andre. And I'm paraphrasing here. So if I get it wrong, please correct me.
It seemed to you that he was trying to be the best player in the world every time he walked out there, instead of just beating whoever he needed to beat on the other side of the net. And that's a profound kind of a realization on your part and a profound gift, I think, that you gave him ultimately. And an amazing bit of not just coaching, but of philosophy in general. And I'm wondering how you came to that. It's such a brilliant kind of observation.
Had you seen it before in other players? Had you seen it in yourself?
Well, first of all, I couldn't fucking believe Andre had lost to me four times because he was way better than me. Andre battles perfection. And that's partly because of no matter what he did, his dad was tough on him. It could always be better. And he was never satisfied with beating somebody.
6-4, 6-4, 6-4, 7-6.
. It could always be way better. And I told him the pursuit of perfection doesn't exist. It only makes you miserable, chasing something that you're not going to find. And you only need to be, with your skill set, at about 50% of what you can be.
And if you're 95% of mentally where you should be, you'll win a ton more matches. And you just have to be better than the guy on the other side of the net. But you lose so many matches trying to be better than you need to be. So if you pull back, don't litter up the stat sheet. Less winners, less unforced errors.
You are going to lose so much less. And he was blown away that, like I could, he's more like a complicated Ferrari. I'm a Chevy truck. I see things I say. And that was in the summer of 94..
We were going through a little bit of a bad stretch. And I told him all we need to do is win one close match. And everything will kick in for you. And he said, you like to win a close match. I want to win just, you know, two and two.
And then, sure enough, he was playing. Andre was playing this guy, David Wheaton. And he had a 1-3 record against it. But I was really confident on that day that he was going to be fine. We went over our tactics.
As it turned out, David Wheaton I'm watching was playing great. But Andre ended up toughing out Wheaton like 7-6 in the third, saved a couple of match points. And it was like a 10-8 breaker in the third set. Andre was disgusted with himself. afterwards.
I was so pumped up that I said, you gave yourself an opportunity to compete tomorrow. The most important thing about winning today is now you can get better tomorrow. You live to see another shot. You know, this is the kind of match you always lose, but you didn't today. So he was literally ready to like, he's thinking this tournament was over.
And in my mind, it had just started. Good things will happen. And literally, he did. He got up and he played better. the next day.
A second round match, won the tournament. And three weeks later, he won the Open. And I can tell you now, fast forward 30 years, Coco Gauff shares the exact same issues that Andre did about this whole pursuit of perfection. And she was never satisfied with being good, which led to a lot of losses that she probably didn't need to have. And it's more about learning about yourself that your good is better than a ton of others.
But you just have to accept that and understand that the role can't be perfect every time. Every take can't be just spot on. But your interpretation of that is damn good.
Yeah, it reminds me of a story. My dad used to tell me when we would have a catch, when I was like three or four, and I'd drop one and I'd explode in anger and frustration. He'd say, pick it up. You know, throw it back to me. I'll throw you another one.
You get the next one. And I, crying, I'd say, I don't want the next one. I want that one. The one that I dropped, you know, so there's all these kind of like,
psychological barriers that we're born with in many ways. My father said to me, as an adult, he said to me when I was an adult, I don't know where that came from. You know, that was not something I ever tried to impart to you, that you needed to be perfect and catch every ball. So the fact that you could break through to Andre at that point in his career too, shows a lot of trust of him and you. And I think when I read your stuff and when I watch you work, you really take joy in other people's genius.
You really take joy in other people's victories. And I think that's why somebody like Andre, and Murray and Roddick, and now Coco, are able to trust you.
Well, you know, there's no greater joy, David, than trying to help somebody fulfill their dreams. And David, honestly, when I started coaching, I was playing. And all I was thinking about was Andre had so much talent. And I could just help a little bit. And it's the same when I started with Coco.
That how am I going to just make her a little bit better? Because their talent is exceptional. And so that's where you free your own self and look through their lenses. And how am I going to help Coco manage what she's doing in the moment to just get a little bit better? Because their good is significantly better than my good.
So that's why I could free myself from that. And I love that challenge. And once I started coaching Coco in Washington last year on the fly, I never got so many texts to fix her forehand, do this, fix this. And I'm like, in my mind, people don't realize that, like, you can't just change somebody's grip and change the swing. And my brain was, what happens if you did that?
and it didn't work? You'd be 10 times worse off. So you manage with what you got and help them get better. And that's how I look at it. I love the challenge of that simplicity.
Some coaches are guilty in a lot of sports of always wanting to coach the same way. They might not have the personnel to coach that team or person that way, but yet they're fixated. That's the way they are. Andre had a photographic memory, which shocked me. He has absolute recall.
Roddick and Coco are very similar in that Roddick is a lot like, this. message is from Mission Impossible, and I'm talking about the one from the 60s that will implode in 10 seconds. So you have to be able to get in and get out quickly. Same with Coco. Coco doesn't like a long dissertation about it.
And that's the nuance of coaching, that just because Andre is like that and I'm like that, doesn't mean it's going to be successful for Coco or Andy Roddick. And the same for parenting.
Well, that's what I was going to say. There's no prototype kid either. So you've got to be malleable with your coaching technique for each and every individual kid.
My youngest, who's 26,. Zoey, will tell me sometimes, when I'm trying to do, Dad, that bullshit that you do on the coach is not working with me. You've got to find another. And she's right. So each person, whether or not it's your kid, the person you coach, you have to tap into their strengths and figure out what makes them tick.
And, most importantly, the biggest thing that you learn from a player to a coach is, I'm not looking through my own lens anymore. I'm looking through their lens and understanding their strengths and weaknesses, and removing my brain from what I would do to what they need to do. That's the quickest way to understanding how to be a coach and help them. Sometimes it doesn't work. Some days it doesn't work.
I once told Andre this story. He looked at me like I was fucking nuts. When I was up 5'2", I would always tell myself I was 5'2 down. So I would just keep pushing and keep driving.
And you were able to believe that?
Yeah. And Andre's like, are you kidding? Like, there's a scoreboard. You can't tell me that bullshit and you think it's going to work. But I could actually make myself believe that, because maybe I was a little shallow.
I don't know if it's shallower, but it's definitely a mental process that you either had access to naturally or you grew it.
I don't know if I had access to it. It's just the craziness of myself to believe it. And I think that that's probably fear more than anything.
Well, let's talk about fear a little bit, because that's what failure is really all about. That's the highway to failure. is fear, right? And that's where you're going. And all the key is like, how do I stay loose?
How do I not choke? I've been told that the unconscious doesn't know any negatives. So if you say, don't panic, all the unconscious hears is panic. So it's like, how do you talk to that part of your brain that is starting to seize up? And I've seen everybody choke.
I've seen the greatest choke. Everybody chokes. There's no doubt. Everybody chokes.
You're not human. You're not human if you don't.
Right.
But what sets apart greatness is clarity under pressure. That you don't have an indecision. It might not go well, but things actually slow down for the Michael Jordans, the Wayne Gretzky's, the Feds and the Rafas and the Serena's, you know, Usain Bolt's. These people that are at this level. But things actually become clear and they slow down.
for a lot of people that are really good. Things speed up and you question your decision making. But when something's working, that's what you want to keep doing under pressure.
That grounds you in the present. Anyway, it takes your mind off of a possible failure looming. And it's just what am I going to do on this next point?
Absolutely.
Yeah. I mean, well, that, you know, I've seen that you talk about. the most important thing is short term memory loss, and that's a wonderful, wonderful way to look at it. But how do we develop that?
The craziest part is I used to remember all my results. I've forgotten them, but now, because of the internet, you can look things up before you had to remember everything.
And so I've forgotten so many of my wins. But for some ridiculous reason, you remember losses.
Of course you do.
Like they happened yesterday. It's like, I don't want to remember losses. I want to remember like good wins.
Right. Of course.
But a gutting loss for Roddick at 2004 Wimbledon.
Yeah, I watched that.
And I was so surprised. Andy actually wasn't gutted after the match. He still wanted to go out and celebrate. And I probably was an asshole and said, no, we shouldn't celebrate tonight because, of, you know, we didn't get to win.
Right.
But and I'm still to this day, probably bitter that I didn't show up that night because of, you know, what he was, you know, being the bigger person in that moment, that, like it, was a hell of a match. Didn't get the result. But I'm not going to hide in my room. I'm not going to, you know. And I should have been a little bit smarter about that situation and not been bitter.
And I do say short term memory loss as a player, as a coach, is really important. But as a person, totally, because you can become bitter over them and it will affect you the next match two weeks later. Sometimes one match. Six weeks later can still be costing you. So I feel like, actually, I probably ultimately learned from that match, you know, but in that moment, I was a little bit down, you know, I was the Debbie Downer that night.
Yeah. And I remember my son, who is now so 35.. He was 15.. He was like, Dad, we should, you know, we should be going to this. And then I think he went and I didn't go.
Right.
And it was stupid of me.
Learning new languages is incredibly important. It keeps our brains active and adaptable, especially as we age. Rosetta Stone can be the door that not only leads you to new languages, but helps you build other new skills. Whether on desktop or through the app, Rosetta Stone offers an immersive experience in the language you want to learn. As a big advocate for language learning, I love how Rosetta Stone makes it accessible for everyone.
I've been trying to brush up on my Spanish, and their bite-sized lessons have meant that I'm able to keep my motivation up, no matter what. For 30 years, Rosetta Stone has been a trusted expert in the field, serving millions of users and offering 25 different languages. They focus on rapid language acquisition without English translations, enabling you to truly speak, listen, and think in your chosen language. Better yet, their True Accent feature provides feedback on your pronunciation. You can also get a lifetime membership that includes all 25 languages, ensuring you're covered for any trips and language needs throughout your life.
Don't put off learning that language. There's no better time than right now to get started. For a very limited time, Fail Better. listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash failbetter.
That's 50% off unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your 50% off at rosettastone.com slash failbetter today.
Wish your favorite TV show had twice as many episodes? We know that feeling. And so does Discover. We all want more of our favorites. That's why Discover doubles.
another favorite thing. Cashback. That's right. Discover automatically doubles the cashback earned on your credit card at the end of your first year with Cashback Match. Now that's a real crowd-pleaser, minus the nail-biter cliffhanger.
Everyone knows how it ends. Double the cashback. See terms at discover.com slash credit card. Hi, I'm Leisha Haley. And I'm Kate Manning.
20 years ago, we met playing best friends on the set of the TV show The L Word, which quickly morphed into us being actual best friends for the rest of our lives. Truly. It feels like we're an old married couple but with fewer cats, although we each have a number of cats in our lives. And we're pretty much inseparable and have more or less zero boundaries. Hence why we named our podcast Pants, because at this point, you can't have one leg without the other.
And each week, we catch up with each other on the big and small things going on in our lives, which then leads to much oversharing and little left to the imagination. Whether it's sex or therapy or money fears, literally nothing is off the table in terms of discussion topics.
Oh, and we also like to talk about that wild ride that was The L Word.
You know, the genesis of our friendship. And Pants is out now, wherever you get your podcasts from Lemonada Media.
You talk about acting, a couple times. you mentioned acting, and I really appreciate that, because I, as I said, I wanted to be a pro basketball player. That wasn't going to happen. I used to watch my hands because my dad would say, your hands aren't big enough. And I'd watch my hands and I'd swear that they were growing.
Because if you watch something long enough, it starts to vibrate. So I'd say, they're growing, they're growing. And that was my dream. But it was clear. I wasn't going anywhere with it.
And I kept searching for the intensity of competition. And it was only when I started acting that I found, you know, not so much in the wind, but I also love team sports. So I like the collaboration of acting as well. But it was there that I found, you know, the kind of high wire intensity that I'd always miss. So it really, acting became a substitution for me for any kind of sporting competition, you know.
There's a lot of parallels between an actor and a tennis player. And the focus, the determination and the drive. I spent, you know, 2022, working on this movie called Challengers, where I was a tennis consultant. And I spent a lot of time with Zendaya. And she has, like, drive, you know, similar to like a Coco, you know, which maybe, you know, Zendaya prepared me to get ready for Coco.
Um, but it's just a singular focus, and been doing it from a young age. And that's what your focus is. And everything that you do, you're trying to do it, to improve, to get better. And the willingness to put in the hours is the thing of beauty to see.
Right now, when you're, when you're coaching Zendaya for that movie, it must be a tough choice, because there's one way to go about it, which is to try and make her the best tennis player you can make her, or you can try to make her look like the best tennis player that you can make her look. How do you go about doing that?
Well, it was my first foray into doing this. And in a short period of time, it wasn't like Zendaya had to go from, she'd never played. So so it wasn't OK. So we had a short period of time and it wasn't, and she's supposed to be pro level. So it's not like we were getting prepared to have like a little hit and giggle that you see in a movie.
So my brain just instantly. How are we going to help?
How much time do you have?
We had like three months in Malibu and L.
A. And then we had about six weeks in Boston. And then I learned, you know, after Malibu, we were really trying to work on a lot of things. But once we got to Boston and we knew shooting was and we got her body double, it was more about preparing. And this is where her acting kicked in, is learning the body movements and the swings of my body double, so I could be in sync with her.
And she put in the work. And I think that helped her probably a ton, understanding that now I got to choreograph my movement and my swings towards this particular person, opposed to maybe having an idea of a bunch of different, you know, players. And that's where the acting kind of probably helped her a lot.
Yeah. One of the kind of acting methods that I that I started studying when I, when I started acting, was the Meisner technique. I don't know if you ever heard of that. Have you heard of Meisner? So I have not.
But, you know, enlighten me.
I will enlighten you. So I think you'll like this. So the core of that acting school is what they call a repetition exercise, which is at its most basic. And they barely explain it to you. They just kind of have you do it.
But at its most basic, it's I say, you're looking at me. I just noticed something in you. You're looking at me and you say you're looking at me back. You just repeat exactly what I say. And so it's you're looking at me, you're looking at me and it immediately can turn into a fight.
It can turn into love. It can turn into tears and laughter. And you see, what you learn immediately is there is no, it doesn't matter what the words are, because the story is the human emotion underneath it. But what you, what you really learn as an actor in that exercise is it's all on the other, the guys on the other side of the net. He's throwing it back.
You throw the ball to him. He throws it back. You hit the ball to him. He hits it back. That's the entire basis of that acting technique is very much like tennis.
Well, that's not dissimilar to the wall.
Well, you can do the repetition in the mirror. That's the version of the wall. So I can, I can get up in the morning. And if I want to, like, do a little exercise, I can. I can go look in the mirror, brush my teeth, say you look like shit.
And that's how it goes immediately.
All right. I get it. I get it. That's an interesting technique.
Yeah. Um, you've said that people, the tennis players, they overestimate their weaknesses, or they underestimate their weaknesses. And do you think that that people are generally like that? And that's one of the one of the ways we can get out of our own way is by being completely honest with ourselves. However, if you're too honest with yourself, you can talk yourself out of a win as well.
Right.
Well, I think that the first what you said is I do think a ton of tennis players, they think their weakness isn't a weakness. And I'm a numbers guy. And I'll say, OK, your justification of how you're playing, the shot is costing you. And one guy that I work with, Sam Query, had a serve and a forehand. And I felt like if he just managed his backhand better, just like a left jab.
Didn't go for the backhand, just kept it in play, would maximize his serve and his forehand. Right. But he really believed that the backhand was his best shot, which had me flummoxed. So fast forward, like 14 years later, doing an event last year in Napa. Sam is retired.
He's playing in this little exhibition with Steve Johnson. And Steve Johnson asked me about why I didn't do better with Sam. And I told him the story about the backhand. And then instantly Sam picked up like it was 13 years before. No, because my backhand is my best shot.
I don't know why you said that. And I'm like, Sam, I really, really, really want to tell you your backhand is your best shot, but it's not. And it's 13 years later.
All right. I mean, as somebody who's had a lousy backhand his whole life, I just I go out there and I want to hit backhands all the time. And I get miserable because I think it's suddenly going to get better. But it won't.
Clearly. If you just manage it, David, put it in play.
Well, we'll go ahead.
Yeah. No. So we can manage your game. And then maybe now your forehand can do more damage. Right.
So that's what I think about, like the, you know, the math of tennis, the numbers that like if you manage a weakness and you magnify the strength, then because a lot of times in a tennis match, you win six, four, six, four. It's only a five points difference.
Sure.
So that the margins are small. So if you play the margins right, you can change things.
I keep on thinking that all these lessons are really important, you know, obviously not just for tennis, but for all of life. And I'm trying to translate them on the fly and I'm not doing a very good job, but I think I think they'll settle in. And I think, you know, I think, you know, this because I think in your book, you say lessons from the court to the, to the boardroom or whatever. So I think, you know, that you have wisdom to impart that goes beyond the tennis court. My coach, Coach Burns, he was my basketball coach in high school and he.
He taught me it was all right to care. That's what he taught me. You know, he taught me it was all right to hate losing and to care about the game and to care about, you know, to respect myself out there and to play, play, play as hard as I really felt like winning, you know, and to care about losing. That's beautiful. Not to hate losing, but to care, to cry after a loss.
Like we cried after a loss, not not all the time, but a specific one. And how beautiful is that? Here I am like a, you know, super cool, long haired, blase high school student crying about a stupid basketball game. But that's a beautiful thing, because if we can attach to moments like that in life, I think we that's the win. The win is caring.
Yeah, no. And to what you just said, probably still to this day, 20 years on, that I was fucking stupid and didn't go out that night with Andy. And because I cared so much, I cared. It killed me for him that he didn't get that. And he never won Wimbledon.
Yeah, you know, and he lost it, and he lost in 2005.
. He lost again in 2009.. But I cared so much for it. But in that moment, that's the way he needed to process it. And I should have shared that moment with him to let him process it that way.
That's amazing. I want to thank you for having this conversation with me. It's been really enlightening. And I keep on butting up against my own memories as an athlete and listening to you. remember the losses.
I remember the losses, too, man. And they weren't as significant as yours. They weren't on the big stage. But they were losses.
Yeah, totally. Yeah.
All right, man. Well, I'll see you in LA.
Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
Okay, this could be dangerous, because I'm waking up the morning after talking to Brad Gilbert and just getting down my thoughts before coffee. That's the dangerous part. So what I got from him, in a way, is kind of what I was hoping to get, and more because he takes a very practical approach to dealing with fear, fear of failure,
what we call choking when we're in sports, when we talk about that thing. We can choke. in life, you know, it just isn't as this intensified moment, this clarified moment where we confront ourselves and our inability to rise to the moment or our fear of rising to the moment. So Brad's got this muscular approach to choking.
And, you know, he keeps on coming back to tactics, tactics, tactics, tactics, which is kind of, that's the zen of his approach.
Because it grounds you in the moment, all right? So you're like, oh my god, if I lose this game, if I lose this match, then, you know, then I don't make the money, then I lose the house, then my wife and kids leave me, and then I die in the gutter, you know?
Yeah, and that's how my mind goes. And that's how I think many minds go. And Brad would be there to focus you on the now, to keep your feet moving. I mean, literally, Brad will say, think of your feet, you know, stay on your toes. See ball, hit ball.
Bring it back down to just simple, right action, correct action. And there's a lot to be said for that.
There's more. Fail Better. with Lemonada Premium. Subscribers get exclusive access to bonus content. like more of my behind-the-scenes thoughts on this episode.
Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts. Fail Better is a production of Lemonada Media in coordination with King Baby. It is produced by Keegan Zemma, Aria Bracci, and Donny Matias. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson.
Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal. Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski, and Kate D. Lewis. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles-Wax, Jessica Cordova-Kramer, and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis, Rowan, and Sebastian Modak.
Special thanks to Brad Davidson. You can find us online at Lemonada Media, and you can find me at David Duchovny. You know what it means when I say at David Duchovny. Follow Fail Better wherever you get your podcasts, or listen ad-free on Amazon Music with your Prime Membership.
I'm Sam Smith, and welcome to The Pink House.
I love being in The Pink House with you.
Join me as I talk to my friends and some amazing queer icons about their idea of home,
like Elliot Page, Joel Kim Booster, and Gloria Estefan. Music was always my escape. It was my happy place.
The Pink House from Lemonada Media is out now. You can listen ad-free on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts.
Get ready to dive into some of the funniest podcasts around with Lemonada Media's comedy lineup. You can enjoy Choice Words with Samantha Bee, as she laughs along with guests while they talk about their sometimes questionable life decisions. Or listen in as Sarah Silverman answers unpredictable voicemails from her fans on the Sarah Silverman podcast. And don't miss Threedom, where Scott Aukerman, Paul F. Tompkins, and Lauren Lapkus hang out, tell stories about each other, and see who can make the other two laugh.
And the best part? You can listen to all of these podcasts and more from Lemonada Media on Amazon Music.
v1.0.0.240919-5_os