Griffin Dunne: An Actor Builds Character

Lemonada.

I'm David Duchovny, and this is Fail Better, a show where failure, not success, shapes who we are. Griffin Dunn is a friend of mine. He's an actor, he's a producer, he's a director, and now he's an author, a man after my own heart. He's just written The Friday Afternoon Club, which he calls a family memoir, and there sure is a lot of family to cover. Griffin's aunt was Joan Didion, the masterful new journalist, author of the White Album Slouching Towards Bethlehem.

His father, Dominic Dunn, was a decorated and well-connected TV producer who lived a closeted life, but eventually found his people, as well as his passion, which was writing. Griffin's sister, Dominique, was a burgeoning actress and star. You might remember her from the 1982 film Poltergeist. She was tragically killed, murdered by an ex-boyfriend, in a very high-profile criminal case. Most people have not seen as much Hollywood glamor or grizzliness as Griffin did in a few years.

His roles as both participant and observer have led to many stories, many losses, and, of course, many lessons. It was very on-brand that there was a massive tech failure that I didn't cause. I don't think this big Microsoft outage, whatever the hell that means, when we were trying to start our interview, it took a while, but we got it all sorted in the end and had a wonderful conversation. Here it is.

It's the ongoing story of me and technology. It's a, it's not a love story. Let's just, let's just say that.

Where are you?

I didn't know what was true and what wasn't. that the men were philanderers, and, and, and, um, adulterers, and, and, and drank heavily and led a life of such scandal. Um, those are my roots, baby.

And in fact, left my mother when, when I was 11, to go live in the Chelsea hotel, because he said, I've got to write, I've got to write my book, when in fact he was actually leaving for another woman. But that was the cover story. was I need to write.

I'm looking for what sounds familiar, you know, I'm looking for myself. Yeah. But for me, I didn't start writing till my mid fifties, trying to publish till my mid fifties. And I spent so long.

not writing. Cause I still, somewhere inside, identified as a writer. Uh, I don't, I don't know that I would have said that. Um, but I don't know if it was my dad's death. I don't know what it was that actually turned the switch on for me.

And I said, you know what? I've got to do it. I've got to do it now. And I was wondering with you, what was it that said to you, Griffin, who's been a writer all along, but hasn't written, what was that irritant? What was that inciting incident?

Joan was last. And, um, in time, I just let that. well, you know, all the, my, my perspective of their lives and their childhood. And I think, with the distance, I sort of had the freedom, um, not that I was going to write anything that they would have particularly disapproved of, because one thing I did learn from them as writers is everything is material. You know,

in music. She was writing about the doors and, you know, John was like, you know, he'd been to Vietnam and, you know, writing about the war. And they gave these parties, which, you know, for Tom Wolfe and Janice Joplin would come to their parties. And it was a very heady experience. in their, in their writing.

I would see how they would use things that I saw. And then they would write about what I, the same incidents I saw, but from their point of view. And I've always, I was always so impressed by that. And when it came time to write my book, um, I tapped into that. I thought of myself as a journalist, of my own life, of, of getting the facts, right.

as a writer, you're observing, you're not always living and you're not always extending the courtesy of not observing to the people that you love, you know what I mean? I'm just feeling them. And I wonder, I wonder if you have felt that push and pull throughout your life.

into ourselves?

I think I felt, even as a kid and growing up, that I was seeing things that weren't particularly normal and that things that were happening to me weren't, weren't, weren't rather unusual. And I grew up very, very fast. And it was really important to me to, to kind of shed my youth. And, and so I put myself in all sorts of grownup situations as a, as a young person. And, uh, and I would take myself out and go, Oh my God, I'm really doing this or that.

I got to remember this. And all of those experiences went somewhere to some sort of memory bank. that when it came time for me to write, it was all there. It, it, they all just came flooding back. And sometimes I would be writing, I'd be in the moment writing about a particular experience, be it traumatic or hilarious or something.

And I would stop and go, God, I can't believe that really happened. And I'd dive back in and do it. You know, reading the book for an audio book, I would be struck with that all the time. I take myself out, just, I'd have to take a breath, just go,

God, that's a lot.

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I can only imagine the surprise, uh, for you as you started to write this book, you know, as, as you started to change your thinking from speaking these stories to writing these stories down. and how that thinking, how that feeling changes when you do that. But, as I think you put it in the book, you know, you realize early on where you were headed and, and why, the real why of why you had to sit down to write this book was, was her, aside from all the wonderful stories and, and people who you'd lost on the way and who you talk about, you know, who you write about beautifully in the book. But in a way, that's a beautiful perception that you have early on, you know, like the headlights, you know, you can see what's up ahead. And I wonder what that, what that moment was like and the presence of it, the presence of her.

And now, as you finish the book, you speak of another grief. and now you bring the book up and there's a different kind of talking about her and the book. And now even you may be coming to the end of talking about it. Yeah. Cause the book's been out a while.

You've fucking talked to her. You're blue in the face about this.

You know, like the, the book is out. It's been beautifully received. It's done well. Everything's fantastic, but you're not going to continue on around the world talking about it for too much longer. And I wonder how that feels.

Hmm. Uh, I never talked about the trial, um, the briefest way to my closest friends, never in any sort of detail. Everyone who is close to me said, I had no idea. I had no idea. Um, you know, they knew from my father, my father wrote, it changed his life, is changed all ours, but him, he found his voice at great cost to become a writer and a crime reporter and writing about victims.

Um, um, these crimes from the point of view and empathy for the victims who were, um, being dragged through the mud, as, as, as my sister's reputation was. And you're quite right. That's when I saw, okay, this is a different book. I thought this book would be, you know, funny adolescent, you know, crazy, stupid beat off stories. I don't know.

And it just, it just got deeper and deeper as I got closer and closer. And I thought, no, this is Dominic's been in this book the whole, the whole time.

Um, and I just, you know, I just, uh, I just went there and I heard myself talk about it or write about it. And you know, you were, you know, um, asking about, you know, the difference between telling a story and, and writing it. Um, there's a big difference. Um, uh, it just, it, it, it just, you just go into a much deeper, deeper place. And you, you, relive the, the location and the, the smell of the courtroom and the, and then the lighting and the, and the avarice that takes place in a, in a, in a judicial system.

And, and it's not conversational. You're just telling it as you see it. And that's where the journalism kicked in for me. I wanted to get every fact down, every memory down, every observation. And, and my, my parents' dialogue during that time and my brother, how they dealt with it.

I wanted to get down this time from my point of view as a sibling. You know, it used to upset me so much when my father would talk about it on talk shows, promoting a book that had nothing to do with the trial. Um, but of course, every talk show host wanted to talk about the murder and it, but here I went, here, I'm going there. I'm going there. And, uh,

And it wasn't just to sell books, which, you know, in my angry son period, that's what I, I took it to be. He really spoke to people who had been jostled through the judicial system. And, uh, and he became a really strong spokesman. And as I'm, you know, on my, I don't know, 30th interview on a, you know, on a, on a, on a stage, talking about these things. Um, that's what I clung to.

I just channeled dad. I just, you know,

getting his message out about victims' rights and, and, and, and, and domestic violence and the extraordinary transformation of my parents, you know, instead of succumbing to grief and self-pity and loss, they took this injustice. The killer I'm talking about is, uh, served three and a half years. for did you want to call it murder? They called it a manslaughter and they took that and they each, in their own way, tried to bake something positive. come out of that.

And my, my mother, um, started a group called justice for victims of homicide and she changed laws that were in the protecting. There's a law called Marcy's law, that lets families know when the killer has been released on bail, or from, uh, or from prison, or has a parole hearing. You'd think that would be common sense, but my mother made that. That's no, um, a law in 28 States. Um, and, and then my father did his bit, and I'm, I don't know.

I just, I, that's, that's keeping their memory alive. And I, I found it was tough and emotional. I still get quite emotional. Um, but that was my, uh, my job. That was, you know, how, how I got through it.

you know, I, I, I blurbed the book. full disclosure.

I've never been able to find it myself, but I guess I come back to the other question about.

how are you feeling now, at the end of this road? You know, like you've brought her close to you. You've told her story the way that you have wanted to, you've taken control of that narrative and the way that people speak now. Yeah. And now that the, now that this part is ending, how do you feel about that presence that you've conjured up and that you've held close to you for, for years now?

Yeah.

describing what it was like to be me in a family that I love, that I could talk about all of their weaknesses and their, their, their flaws. And cause. I always knew how they were going to come out. I always knew the ending of their arc, of their characters. And, uh, but I think I'm, you know, gonna just sort of, uh, sort of, move on, but feel very, uh, I don't know.

I, I just felt so much love, which I'm not going to let go. Um, but I felt so much love. That's what my brother, who's, you know, the only remaining member of my immediate family was, uh, I needed his permission. You know, my, my brother, you know, had mental struggles and he was bipolar. and, uh, he's fine, now.

He's, he's, he's doing great, but I had to talk about that period. And he gave me the greatest note before I even started writing. And he said, you know, write whatever you want about me, whatever you want,

just have it come from a place of love. And that has stayed with me all the way through. And every time I'm, you know, talking about this for the 400th time, um,

that's, that's kind of what drives me. And I, and I, I guess, I guess I, I'm, I'm, I don't want to lose that either.

I thought if my kids ever really want to know me, really want to know me after I'm gone, you know, they can somehow pulp this book, squeeze the juice out of it and make a smoothie. And they would know my DNA somehow through this writing. But I'm wondering if you felt that as well, when you finished this and you realized, I'm a writer, I come from a family of writers. I've, I've earned my entrance into this family in many ways. And for those that come after me, for my kid,

they could, they're going to know me. They can know me now. I'm fully known. If you confront this honestly, and with love, as you say,

Um, she lives in New York. She's, uh, you know, still finding herself and, and, you know, she's a very, um, um, very curious person and, uh, um, incredibly, um, emotional and feeling. And she's had such reticence, um, starting the book, reading this book. And, um, and I understood it. Um, you know, it's like, you know, I'm still a work in progress, dad.

I don't want to read, you know, I don't want to know everything about where I'm from. right now. I want to find out where I'm from and, you know, maybe tell my own story, you know? And she didn't say that, but I know that that's a subtext in there. That's where the resistance is.

And, um, it took her forever. And, quite honestly, I'm not, I, you know, I think she has some sort of mixed feelings about it. And,

read, to be the daughter of a writer and read this book and not have it. How can you not see yourself or reflect or see it, confining of who you are? And you come from this family of writers. And so it's sort of, it's not, uh, I know she's proud of me and she's been to, you know, one of the events that I've had and she's seen me, um, you know, on, um, you know, on stage and, you know, hitting these, sometimes I get kind of emotional talking and I see her in the back row and I see her, her, her tearing up with me. But it's a, it's a complicated thing.

Uh, I think, to read, you know, especially if the writer who's your father is very much alive, um, to, to read about his, his life and, um, everything that led up to your own being born.

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The people that were moving this story along is obviously your sister, but also just as strongly your father. And I found the way you discuss your father to be really rich and fascinating, because you really question the notions of masculinity, especially around his time and around that time. And I think that's a really important part of the story. And it's such a rich relationship that you have with him, especially because, you know, he, he didn't share his ultimate, well, anyways, sexual identity with you. But.

here's a man who, who loves the fame. He's interested in famous actors. He loves the gossip aspects of things. And there's you who goes out and becomes famous. And then, in some ways, uh, as you say, self-destructively pushes it away.

And I found that to be such a moving story as somebody who has been famous myself and thought that that was going to solve problems, um, inside and outside, with my parents on some level, uh, make them love me in some weird way. But with your dad, it was almost explicit. Oh, he loves famous people. Here I am. I'm Griffin.

I'm famous and then fuck that.

Um, and, um, um, how important that was. And he was on a very shallow path of real self-destruction. and, um, and, and really imploded, um, with, uh, alcoholism, um, bankruptcy. Um, and he lost all of his possessions. Um, he had to sell all his possessions at a yard sale.

He cared so much about, you know, where these plates are from and could name the kind of rugs and sold them all, put price tags on them, got rid of his fancy Mercedes and, and, uh, and, and left town in shame, in shame, and, uh, broke down in a little town in Oregon, just and ended up living there. And he dug deep, he dug deep. No one should ever have to find themselves at such a cost. And he got sober and, uh,

and his, he became a man. It was right in front of my eyes. Well, not so much because he was away from us and he didn't have a phone, but I could tell his manhood, his, his, his identity, his pride was coming through in these single space, 12, 15 page letters that he would write my brother, sister and I separately, um, about his journey and he, about his facing his humiliations, um, documenting all the horrible mistakes he made in his life. Um, some thrashing himself and just, you know, with such regret. Um, but it was a process.

Um, and we watched him, you know, find himself his true self. Um, and that's, you know, when his daughter was murdered,

he already had the inner strength to get through it. He was already fully formed. The writing, his voice, everything that came later. But, um, I, I never saw someone fall so hard and, and, and, you know, as he was falling, and all the people in the movie business, um, who, um, had been to his parties and everything, they all dumped, him, never returned his calls. Those would be the same people that I, as a young actor, would go and read for and try to get jobs from.

And they were the same people that, you know, kicked my dad when he was down. So I had a, um, the business sort of scared me a little bit, you know? And as I, uh, um, had my first blush with fame, um, I found it kind of scary. I didn't feel fully formed myself. I felt,

um, I thought if this goes on like this, I'm not going to be able to handle this. I'm going to be one of those rehab kids.

Um, and because he'd been in, he made it look fun, you know, cause he'd been in the toilet and he, he'd fought his way out so he could enjoy his success. I was too young to enjoy it. I was like, um, and I also had a dual, uh, occupation of being a movie producer. Um, I got my first significant job in a movie by casting myself in a movie I produced in Chile scenes of winter. And, um, so I, um, I would retreat to producing, to going behind the camera.

And, uh, just when I was supposed to be getting hot, cashing in on fame as an actor, then I go behind the camera. And I would drive people crazy. Um, you know, who wanted me to be famous, like agents and things like that. Um, and you know, I, I, I, I kicked myself a lot. I, I, I really thought of myself as a tremendous failure, for, as is this business designed to make you feel.

Um, and you know, where you actually think. you walk into a restaurant and you're not doing, feeling good about yourself. And you think everybody's looking at you thinking the same awful things. you're thinking about yourself, which of course they're not. Um, but I, you know, went through a lot of self-flagellation about how I screwed up my, um, their trajectory of my acting career and all that stuff.

But, you know, when I wrote this book and I actually had to go through all the stages I went through, I kind of finished the book and I went, huh, that's kind of an interesting career.

I did a lot there.

You've got to become a producer. You've got to become a writer. You've got to become other things. And sometimes those things are more suited to your soul in that moment than, than the acting might be.

Um, my producing partner for many years, Amy Robinson, you know, she and I have been through a great deal and, you know, in our partnership, and we've broken up and we've gotten back together. We've made really great movies that weren't, um, um, appreciated the time and now criterion is now releasing them. Um, that seems to be the, um, the thing I'm noticing at this age is like all the things that, you know, even after hours and werewolf, nobody really thought much about them 20 years later, everybody loves it.

Everything from 20 years ago gets re-appreciated. I think that, that you had an instinct that, you know, if we could talk briefly about what you thought you wanted to do as an actor, you know, when you decided to be an actor, what was calling to you? What did you want to express? What did you want to put out into the world as an actor?

Uh, you know, Justin, um, I grew up in LA, not just a mile from me. Um, and he, uh, chose to be an actor in New York and left Los Angeles, just as I did when I was 19.. I think he was probably around the same age. You know, when I saw him in The Graduate and I saw that face and that humor and those little sounds he was making, I went, that's me. I can do that.

I looked like that guy. Um, and, uh, and, and that's when I got that New York actor in my head. It was a very specific kind of actor I wanted to be. I didn't want to get my bones in television in Los Angeles where I grew up. Um, I wanted to be a theater, New York actor.

Um, and I wanted to, you know,

it's, every actor usually mentions the same people. I just listened to your Sean interview. He said the same guys, DeNiro, Pacino, Hoffman. Those were my guys. Um, so I didn't become that actor, but, but, uh, I became something else.

Not that only men have access to resilience,

but is that fair to say, like, at this point in your life, do you say resilience is, is a kind of a masculinity, a kind of a curve?

is another word, for it would be character.

Earned character. You know, you, you, you, you have to, you have to grow into it. You have to, you know, you have to fill the space of the life you're supposed to be of the man. you're supposed to be, um, of the person. you're supposed to be.

Um, and then you're, um,

and then, then you have an inner strength that you you've earned because of the resilience, because you've fought your way through just walls of shame and, and humiliation and, you know, in, in failure. And, you know, he never got over, um, his wife, my mother, leaving him. Yeah. Um, he, you know, but by the time he came into his character, by the time he embraced what it is to be a man who's fully formed, um, my mother looked at him, you know, she left him for all the reasons we were talking about earlier, about his character. And she was in a, um, she had MS, she was in bed.

She was always in a wheelchair for a good deal of her life. And she looked at him and she goes, do you,

do you know how much you have changed?

You know, that's,

that's character. That's, he grew into, that. He earned it. He fought for it. Yeah.

Um, I really enjoyed that conversation. I really liked Griffin. I really liked his book. Um, as we're talking about parents, as I was talking about parents and, um,

the idea of making your parents happy. If we, if we grow up with, for lack of a better word, sad parents, um, in Griffin's case, you know, a father who is not living an authentic existence, he closeted in that case brings with it certain amounts of shame and sadness.

In my mother's case, um, very, uh, very, very sad after the divorce, heartbroken, sad, and, um, fragile. Uh, and I took it upon myself to.

heal her in a way, even at a young age, at 11, 12, to make her happy, probably happy again, would have been my thought. Although I don't know that she was ever happy. She had a tough upbringing. Yeah. But I remember I had this occasion, uh, my mother was Scottish and I had an occasion where I could get her to, uh, great Britain for a premiere of a movie returned to me that I did in like 2000, and Prince Charles was throwing the premiere.

So my mother, who was born, you know, in poverty in 1930, I was going to fly her back on the Concord, uh, flyer, to, uh, Edinburgh, which is close to where she was brought up, and she was going to meet her Prince, now King. And I, I was very proud to do it, but I didn't realize it was like, I was trying to, um, make her whole, you know, not that my mother was this Royalist, or really, you know, she was a very realistic person and didn't care about that Royal shit or whatever, but it was, it's something, it's something to be able to take your mom to meet the Prince.

and that the Prince is, you know, throwing a party for something you did.

And I realized at some point, probably in talking to my therapist back then, uh, was that this was my, my greatest try to, to make her happy. Uh, my greatest attempt to prove that what I was doing, acting also was legitimate.

Um, and then it was somewhat pathetic in that way, but also, you know, moving, I think,

and that it was a gift in a way, because then I could see that that didn't make her happy either, nor should it have, you know, that's the illusion, because fame is seen as a, as a cure, all by many that don't have it. And those that get it, um, they can see the failure of fame as a liberation. Uh, it doesn't always happen that way, but you can't step back and go, well, that didn't work. I'm still pretty miserable, or I'm still, there's still a hole. There's still a lack.

There's still sadness. Um, anyway, that one rambled.

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as a production of Lemonada media in coordination with King baby. It is produced by Keegan Zema, Aria Bracci, Donnie Matias, and Paula Kaplan. Our engineer is Brian Castillo. Our SVP of weekly is Steve Nelson. Our VP of new content is Rachel Neal.

Special thanks to Carl Ackerman, Tom Krupinski and Brad Davidson. The show is executive produced by Stephanie Whittles, wax, Jessica Cordova, Kramer, and me, David Duchovny. The music is also by me and my band, the lovely Colin Lee, Pat McCusker, Mitch Stewart, Davis, Rowan, and Sebastian Modak. You can find us online at Lemonada media, and you can find me at David Duchovny. Follow, fail better, wherever you get your podcasts or listen to ad free on Amazon music with your prime membership.

Get ready to dive into some of the funniest podcasts around with Lemonada media's comedy lineup. You can enjoy choice words with Samantha B as she laughs along with guests while they talk about their sometimes questionable life decisions, or listen in as Sarah Silverman answers, unpredictable voicemails from her fans on the Sarah Silverman podcast. And don't miss freedom, where Scott Ackerman, Paul F Tompkins and Lauren Lapkus hang out, tell stories about each other and see who can make the other two laugh the most. And the best part, you can listen to all of these podcasts and more from Lemonada media on Amazon music.