Harris navigates Netanyahu visit
2024-07-26 00:25:01
Every Friday, Guardian columnist and former Washington correspondent, Jonathan Freedland, invites experts to help analyse the latest in American politics. From politicians to journalists covering the White House and beyond, Jonathan and his guests give listeners behind the scenes access to how the American political machine works.
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It's been a week of big speeches. Vice President Kamala Harris kicked off her hastily organized presidential campaign.
This campaign is not just about us versus Donald Trump. This campaign is about who we fight for.
Current President, Joe Biden, spoke to The Nation from the Oval Office, explaining why he chose to step aside.
Nothing can come in the way of saving our democracy. That includes personal ambition. So I've decided the best way forward is to pass the torch to a new generation.
On top of all that, Benjamin Netanyahu addressed Congress this week with some notable absences from those boycotting the Israeli prime minister.
America and Israel must stand together.
With less than 100 days to the presidential election, what is the state of play for everyone involved? I'm Joan E. Grieve, in for Jonathan Friedland, and this is Politics Weekly America.
I feel much better than where we were last week.
Ben Rhodes is an author and a political contributor who co-hosts his own podcast, Pod Save the World. He was also formerly an advisor to Barack Obama.
The collective sense is that this has ended up in the right place and doesn't fix everything, doesn't guarantee anything, but there's now a clear path and people are coming together behind it.
Yeah, I think it's become somewhat of an overused phrase to say that we're living in unprecedented times, but really, this endeavor that Democrats are now setting out on to try to win a general election campaign in 100 days with a brand new nominee is something that we've never really seen before. Do you get the sense that Democrats understand the magnitude of this task and do you feel like Democrats are up for it?
I think Democrats understand that, because, look, if there's anything, that's disciplined Democrats, who can sometimes be quite undisciplined. the last few years, it's been fear of the danger of Trump. And, like, if anything, I think that was why, despite a lot of concerns about Joe Biden's age over the last couple of years, I think for some time Democrats were too quiet about that, because nobody wanted to rock the boat with Trump lurking there. And then, when the debate kind of exploded, those concerns out into the open, you saw the party begin to coalesce around the idea that, well, we can't do this, we can't go into the election like this. And I think if it wasn't Trump looming under the side, you might have seen more people either challenge Joe Biden in the primary or challenge Kamala Harris in the last few days, but you're going to see very little kind of infighting in the Democratic Party, because people are well aware that the clock is ticking and, you know, the stakes are very, very high.
So let's focus on Biden for a second. He was isolating with COVID last weekend, so he announced he was dropping out via a letter posted to social media, and he promised everyone that he would tell the nation more about his choice later on. He did that on Wednesday night from the Oval Office.
The great thing about America is here. kings and dictators do not rule, the people do.
History is in your hands. The power is in your hands. The idea of America lies in your hands.
What did you make of his speech?
The interesting thing is he didn't really tell people much more about his choice than the speech, right? I mean, this is not a speech where he kind of let everybody inside his thinking and thought process and his feelings about having to let go of something that he clearly, you know, wanted to hold on to. I think the speech was aimed at kind of framing the message of the, you know, accomplishments of his presidency, trying to kind of hand things off to Kamala Harris, and he was speaking to posterity a bit, you know, knowing that this is a speech that people would go back and look at years from now. I believe my record as president, my leadership in the world, my vision for America's future, all merited a second term, but nothing, nothing can come in the way of saving our democracy. Look, no surprise or secret.
I mean, he didn't want it. You know, you had the first kind of push and calls for him to step aside after the debate. He was very defiant, and I know that version of Joe Biden. I've worked with him for eight years, saw him every day. He has a streak that draws motivation from being underestimated and feeling like he's been counted out.
There's a bit of a chip on his shoulder about how that's happened in the past, and that was what he was kind of tapping into. But I also know that there's a side to Joe Biden that is a deeply Democratic Party man, right, someone who's been at the center of the Democratic Party through all of its twists and turns since the Watergate era, and somebody that does have that capacity to step back and think about, well, what am I risking by doing the thing I want to do? You know, it's definitely enough to give Democrats time and space to see if we can get behind Kamala Harris and if she can get this done.
And you touched on this a bit earlier, but why do you think it took until now for Biden and the Democratic Party more broadly to have this conversation? Because voters have been voicing concerns about Biden's age for a while now, and because it's happening so late, the country kind of did miss out on the opportunity to have a full primary to determine who the Democratic nominee will be. Do you have any kind of sense of wistfulness about what might have been if this conversation had happened earlier?
I think a lot of people thought this conversation was kind of going to take place after our midterm elections, our congressional elections in 2022.. I think part of what happened is that Democrats performed better than expected in those elections. Frankly, I think that was in part because of the abortion issue being on the ballot for the first time, because it was the first election after Roe v. Wade was overturned. Which is to say, I think while Joe Biden's done a very good job as president, him and his team might have overlearned some lessons from that election, that essentially that was a validation of him rather than a combination of circumstances.
There was all this kind of unease underneath the surface in the party. It would pop a hole every now and then. when that special counsel put out a report describing Joe Biden as elderly. There was anxieties spilled over to the surface. But it wasn't until the debate when I think what was probably clearer to the Democratic voters, who were saying this in polls, that they wanted an alternative, all of a sudden it became clear to the entire country and to the party establishment and party leadership that this is just not a good idea.
By the way, I don't think it's necessarily the worst thing that it took some time. Weirdly, having Kamala step forward after the Republican convention meant that instead of them spending four days at their convention trashing Kamala Harris, they didn't. We got past their convention, and now we've got a clean runway into the Democratic convention and can raise a lot of money and give this thing a massive push.
Now that Biden has stepped aside, how much do you think he's likely to campaign now? He's made it very clear that he's firmly behind Harris' candidacy. Do you expect to see him out on the trail much?
I think Joe Biden will be out there. I think the Obamas will be out there, both Obamas. I think you'll see a pretty aggressive effort to try to recruit people, not just from the Democratic Party, where it'll be all hands on deck, but are there celebrities? Anybody that can turn out people to vote. There are places where Joe Biden is very beloved in the Democratic Party, in the labor union movement in the upper Midwest.
In some of those states, Pennsylvania, where Joe Biden was born, I think you'll see the Democratic Party divide up who's most effective in front of which audience. It won't just all be on Kamala Harris' shoulders. You'll see a lot of people out there doing their part.
Let's talk about another big speech this week from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who was invited to speak in front of a rare joint session of Congress.
At the very moment, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was receiving a rapturous ovation from members of Congress. Some of the thousands of protesters who'd gathered outside were pepper sprayed by police and had to seek treatment.
He traveled to D.C. this week and met with Biden on Thursday and is due to meet with Trump on Friday. But it feels like he's been slightly upstaged now by recent events, right?
Yeah, which I enjoyed. I mean, I think it's absurd that he's even here getting a platform in front of the U.S. Congress. But frankly, what I took away is he's diminished. Everybody knows he's deeply unpopular at home.
He's obviously even less popular around the world. And if he thought he could come make a big splash, he kind of came and was like the 10th largest story of the day. I mean, we're focused on our politics. Obviously, it's been a more unusual political month than normal, with the assassination attempt and Trump going through his convention and then Biden stepping down. But just the idea that he thought he could come here in July of our election year and make himself the center of attention shows you what a narcissist Bibi Netanyahu is.
And that speech got a little bit of attention, but I can tell you it's not exactly on the tip of everybody's tongue here today.
And I think many Democrats agree with you, because there were some members of Congress who actually boycotted Netanyahu's speech. The only Palestinian American member of Congress, Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib, actually held up a sign that said war criminal as Netanyahu spoke. And that came a day after her Senate colleague, Bernie Sanders, called Netanyahu the same thing.
In bringing Prime Minister Netanyahu to address a joint meeting of Congress, it will be the first time in American history that a war criminal has been given that honor. Frankly, this invitation to Netanyahu is a disgrace and something that we will look back on with regret.
But some Republicans loved having Netanyahu there. Can you tell me why?
Yeah, because I think Netanyahu wants to divide the Democratic Party. I think Netanyahu wants Donald Trump to be elected, and I think the Republicans know that. I mean, when I was in the White House with Barack Obama, Bibi Netanyahu would essentially function as a Republican political operative in his engagements in American politics. And it was like, let's divide Democrats and get them fighting with each other, and let me rile up the Republicans. And that's exactly the kind of speech he gave yesterday.
And you're right, over 100 Democrats boycotted that speech, including Nancy Pelosi and Bernie Sanders, right? I mean, so not just people on the left. Nancy Pelosi is not like a left winger, particularly on foreign policy issues. And then you have thousands of protesters outside. Again, I think Netanyahu and the Republicans might think, oh, this is good for us.
The Democrats are divided over this issue, and the Republicans are fired up because they think it puts Democrats in an uncomfortable position, like do I clap or do I not? But I think it's all kind of absurd, given what's happening in Gaza. You know, you've got. over 70% of Israelis want him out of that job. He's lost their confidence.
He's failed to achieve his objectives in Gaza. He's not defeating Hamas militarily. Nobody knows that. So I think, again, they're running the play that they've tried to run many times before. Let's use Israel to divide the Democrats and fire up the Republicans.
But I don't really feel like it had much impact, to tell you the truth.
And you're exactly right that Pelosi was especially critical of Netanyahu. She called the 56-minute-long speech, quote, by far the worst presentation of any foreign dignitary invited and honored with the privilege of addressing the Congress of the United States. So what were your main takeaways from Netanyahu's speech?
Yeah, I mean, I shared those sentiments, but to kind of take it seriously, it was an interesting speech in that, you know, it started and there was this kind of extended period where he kind of acted like an American president giving a State of the Union address, which is, you know, you invite people and you put them up in the audience and you kind of point them out and everybody's, of course, going to applaud.
One of those freed hostages, Noor Gamani, is here in the gallery, sitting near my wife, Sarah. On the morning...
A bunch of IDF soldiers who had harrowing stories, and he was, you know, seeking to kind of lift up Israel's diversity. He kept kind of emphasizing the kind of diverse ethnic backgrounds and even religious backgrounds of people that were both impacted by October 7th and then people that were fighting in the months since. Then. he took a turn.
And then you got the real Netanyahu.
The ICC prosecutor accuses Israel of deliberately targeting civilians. What in God's green earth is he talking about?
He described a reality that simply does not exist.
The IDF just dropped millions of flyers, sent millions of text messages, made hundreds of thousands of phone calls to get Palestinian civilians out of harm's way.
He said that they have not restricted food going into Gaza.
If there are Palestinians in Gaza who aren't getting enough food, it's not because Israel is blocking it, it's because Hamas is stealing it.
His own government announced that they were cutting off food. The U.S. government has had to fight, often unsuccessfully, to get Israel to unblock certain aid crossings. He made a kind of preposterous claim that there were no civilian casualties in the Israeli military operation in Rafa.
The war in Gaza has one of the lowest ratios of combatants to non-combatants casualties in the history of urban warfare. And you want to know where it's lowest in Gaza?
It's lowest in Rafa.
Just patently absurd. And so he kind of presented this view of what happened in Gaza as if, like, all the bad things you've heard, just don't exist. And I think it's kind of grotesque that Congress gave him a platform to do that. Then he attacked protesters.
For all, we know, Iran is funding the anti-Israel protests that are going on right now outside this building. Not that many, but they're there.
He said that the people protesting outside the capital were financed by the Iranian government, which seems like some kind of right-wing conspiracy theory or something, which is insulting to the Democratic base.
Well, I have a message for these protesters. When the tyrants of Tehran, who hang gays from cranes and murder women for not covering their hair, are praising, promoting, and funding you, you have officially become Iran's useful idiots.
At a time when, you know, young people who've been alienated by Joe Biden's policies are beginning to be, I think, a bit more fired up about Kamala Harris, to come and use the Congress to attack American protesters, I thought was offensive, frankly. And then he gave no new ideas on what he's doing in Gaza. He repeated his goal that Hamas has to surrender. They're not going to do that. And so all these things, yeah, they're good.
applause lines in front of Congress. If you say, we will win, you know, a bunch of Republicans will stand up and give you a standing ovation. But what does that mean in reality? And so I found it kind of sad, to tell you the truth, to watch my own Congress cheering for this guy who's clearly out of answers.
So let's turn our attention to Harris, because she wasn't there for Netanyahu's speech due to a scheduling conflict, but she did meet Netanyahu privately on Thursday. She also condemned some of the protesters who burned the American flag and sprayed pro-Hamas graffiti outside Union Station in D.C. I wonder, Ben, do you think Netanyahu was happy to see Biden step aside for Harris?
I don't think so, to tell you the truth. Joe Biden has obviously ended up having a pretty scratchy relationship with Netanyahu, but he's basically given Netanyahu a blank check. He went there right after the October 7th attacks, wrapped his arms around him literally and kind of figuratively, and, with the exception of a single weapons shipment, has basically given the Netanyahu government whatever it wants, in terms of vetoing U.N. Security Council resolutions and providing offensive military assistance. You know, I don't speak for Kamala Harris.
I think the perception is, you know, she's been less enthusiastic about that kind of blank check approach than Joe Biden. I don't expect her to, you know, she's still vice president. I don't think she's going to go out and disagree publicly with policy. But if you've listened to her talk over the last few months.
We have been clear in multiple conversations and in every way that any major military operation in Rafah would be a huge mistake. Let me tell you something. I have studied the maps. There's nowhere for those folks to go. And we're looking at about a million and a half people in Rafah who are there because they were told to go there, most of them.
She's much more emphatic in underscoring concern about Palestinian loss of life. She has been much more kind of emphatic in calling for a ceasefire. When I was there, the Netanyahu circle like never fully trusted Obama. And I think some of that was. he was younger and he comes out of constituencies, younger voters, black voters, voters of color, who have been more willing to question U.S.
support, military support for Israel's policies. And so, you know, they may project some of that on Harris. Now, at the same time, she's been pretty conventional in her positions on these issues. She's married to a Jewish man, so they're going to have a hard time demonizing her. But that doesn't mean that some people won't try.
I think you're absolutely right that Biden's response to the war has been deeply upsetting for many voters on the left. What do you think that Harris can do or say to reassure some of those voters as she tries to win their support in November?
A simple opportunity she has is in addition to the policy itself, I think Biden himself didn't really appear to want to listen to those people and hear their concerns and kind of acknowledge their concerns. And that made things worse. There was kind of a mentality of like, you know, I know what I'm doing and come election, vote for me because the other guy has a Muslim ban. It was not the best outreach to those communities. I think Joe Biden would have had real problems mobilizing younger voters and mobilizing Arab and Muslim voters in the Democratic Party in ways that could have been potentially, you know, a deal breaker in a state like Michigan.
Not all those voters necessarily come right back as a Kamala Harris, but I think they're open again. In terms of what she can do in Gaza, I think she should listen and speak to the belief that you want to make policy equally valuing Palestinian life and Israeli life. Emphasize the need for the war to come to an end, not just kind of have a ceasefire negotiation, but to end the war. I think she can talk about doing that and talk in a very, you know, sincere and even passionate way about the need for the Palestinians to have a state and to have like a pathway that they can see to something other than the morass they're in. I think if she does those things, I think she can not only win those people back, but hopefully energize some of them.
And if she does indeed take a tougher tone about the continuation of the war, how do you think Netanyahu will respond to that? Do you expect him to move closer to Trump as a result of that? I thought it was interesting that he specifically chose to thank Trump in his speech.
I also want to thank President Trump for all the things he did for Israel, from recognizing Israel's sovereignty over the Golan Heights, to confronting Iran's aggression, to recognizing Jerusalem as our capital.
and moving the American embassy there.
He will. And this is the thing. It's a fool's errand. And I've been saying this inside the party for years. Just because Netanyahu is going to kind of criticize you and work against you isn't a reason to not be willing to break from him.
The last few months, it's been far more damaging for a Democratic president to be embracing Bibi Netanyahu than it would be for a Democratic president to be standing up to him more forcefully. The constituencies that Democrats need to win, younger voters, black voters, Arab and Muslim voters, these are core constituencies in the Democratic Party. And turning them off just because you're afraid of Bibi Netanyahu, criticizing you, is not just bad policy, it's bad politics.
And Ben, we always like to ask a what else question on our podcast. We didn't have time to talk about Donald Trump's first rally since the assassination attempt against him. He's now going full throttle in attacking Harris, as is to be expected from him.
You know, I was supposed to be nice. They say something happened to me when I got shot. I became nice.
And when you're dealing with these people, they're very dangerous people. When you're dealing with them, you can't be too nice. You really can't be. So if you don't mind, I'm not going to be nice. Is that OK?
But if rumors are to be believed, Trump is already regretting his decision to pick J.D. Vance as his VP. Is there any chance Trump throws him overboard? Could he even do that now that the convention is over?
I think there's a chance. I really do. I mean, because this guy, you know, he's like Sarah Palin without the charisma. I mean, he doesn't bring anything to the ticket. politically.
I think Trump thought he had this election totally won. And frankly, if it had been Joe Biden, there might have been something to that. And so J.D. Vance was kind of an arrogant pick. You know, I'm going to anoint a successor who's going to appeal to my most extreme kind of MAGA base and kind of rub the Democrats face in it.
Well, now he's kind of saddled with this guy who has trashed Trump in the past, who doesn't have any charisma and frankly says things that kind of mobilize Democrats because they're so out there.
Democrats say that it is racist to believe. Well, they say it's racist to do anything. I had a diet Mountain Dew yesterday and one today. I'm sure they're going to call that racist, too.
And that's a real problem for him. And now, look, normally it'd be very hard to do that. They're nominating rules in the Republican Party, et cetera. But Trump has such total control of the Republican Party that I think, if he was like, I want to go back and rewrite our convention rules and nominating rules and get a different person, I'll do that. There's a chance he'll replace Vance.
And at a minimum, I'm sure that they're much less happy with the state of the race than they were a week ago.
Ben Rhodes, thanks so much for joining me on Politics Weekly America.
Thanks. Good talking to you.
And that's all for me this week. Before I go, I want to encourage everyone to listen to Friday's episode of Today in Focus. My colleague Helen Pidd speaks to Mina Smallman on how the murder of her two daughters and the horrifying actions of the police in London turned her into an activist. It's an important listen. But for now, it's goodbye.
The producer is Danielle Stevens and the executive producer this week is Phil Maynard. I'm Joan E. Grieve. Thanks, as always, for listening.
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