JRE MMA Show #160 with Francis Ngannou
2024-07-23 02:14:16
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Alright, we're up. What's up, man? Good to see you.
Good to see you too.
You have had a lot of experiences since the last time I saw you.
Yeah.
A lot of things happened.
That's why I like always about writing my book and chapter. keep adding up, adding up, adding up. And yes, every time you feel like you're just maybe in the beginning or in the middle.
Yeah, I don't think so.
You're definitely only in the middle.
Yeah, in the middle.
Somewhere, I mean, it's not the beginning, but it's a lot of experiences. So tell me about leading up to the Tyson Fury fight.
Oh, the Tyson Fury fight, that was great. You know, I was just there living a dream. You know, get this big moment, get that fight that I've been waiting for four years.
The fight that everybody said you were never going to get.
Yes.
Which is crazy, like, thank God for the Saudis. Because they are making things happen, which is really incredible.
They are making things happen.
Incredible.
And it's not like, who is this? Who is that? You know, it's like, OK, we want it to happen, then make it happen.
Yeah, because everybody wanted to see it happen. But it was one of those things where everybody dismissed it. Everybody said, that's not going to happen. Tyson Fury is the heavyweight champion. Why would he fight a guy who doesn't have any professional boxing matches?
That's crazy. That's not going to happen. Yeah. And it happened. And then everybody said, you didn't stand a chance.
And then, when you knocked him down in the second round, everybody was like, holy shit. And when you were dancing over him when he went down.
Yeah. But, you know, I think a lot of people do mistake, something, you know. And I always tell people, like, not because you're a fighter that you walk in the bar. And there is this guy coming to you, maybe this fat guy coming to you. And then you stand there.
And because you're a fighter, don't think, like, he's a threat. Everybody can be a threat. You better step, take two steps back and then, like, see your distance and get ready to defend yourself. You know, you don't. If everybody hits you, anybody hits you, you're going to get hurt.
Right. True. So, yes, I might not have been doing boxing. I'm not a boxer. But still, I'm a fighter.
And even if I wasn't a fighter, you know, I can hurt and I can harm somebody.
You're a big motherfucker. I'm a big guy.
So I was watching it and people was like, no, he stand no chance. He has zero chance. I'm like, there is not a fight on earth that has zero chance. That element of zero chance doesn't exist. I mean, if you look at it, I'm a man, guy.
And then two men together, someone might have more techniques, might know the sport. But even if I never been in the gym, you still better watch out. I still have a chance. Maybe not as much, maybe not equal chance, but I still do have a chance.
But you can't dismiss someone like you and drop your guard.
No.
And think that you don't have any chance.
You shouldn't dismiss anybody.
No.
We used to be in the, I have seen fight that people show up and then they pretend like, oh, they're going to fight. They have stone in their hand. And if you dismiss them because you think like, oh, he's a small guy, he hits you with the stone in his hand. Right, right, right, right. Well, by the time you find out that he has stone in the hand, you are in the ground.
Right.
Exactly. But it was very clear to me that you had some interesting strategies when you went into that fight. First of all, you were fighting a lot of it in Southpaw. Why did you decide to do that? Was that something that you guys had devised before the fight?
You thought it would be an interesting strategy? Or is that just the way you like to box?
I like to box like that, but I also thought it was a strategy, that it would be a good strategy as well. Because, like, basically on the Tyson Fury fight, I think the Southpaw was a big component in that fight. Because every time that I realized, that, every time that I switched to Southpaw, he was thinking. But when I switched back to Orthodox, he was pressing. So when I wanted to take a break, I switched to Southpaw.
What was it like to, I mean, there's. obviously, you've had many MMA fights. You've been very successful, UFC heavyweight champion as an MMA fighter. But what was the difference in the feel of going into a professional boxing fight with a guy like Tyson Fury, who is the heavyweight champion of the world, and one of the greatest of all time. He's absolutely one of the greatest heavyweight boxers ever.
Yeah, but he was completely different. You know, the environment is different, the organization is different. It's different to be a step in the ring for the first time. Okay, you have all this spotlight on you, but you're in the ring. It feels different.
Sometimes you're in the cage, you're used to the cage, you lean on that cage, you have that feeling. You grab the cage. Also, you have shoes on. Yes. And then in the cage, you know that you can do more.
You can wrestle, you can do this, and you're comfortable with that. But you're in the ring for the very first time, somewhere that you've never been. It feels different. And then you're thinking like, oh man, how am I going to do? Am I going to be able to do three rounds?
Am I going to be able to do four rounds? I don't know. I'm going to find out just now. There's not a way back. That's crazy.
You're going to find out. So, by every round, you have to think about like, okay, how am I doing? This is the first round, then second round. Okay, so, this is the fifth round. I'm not too bad, so I think I'm going to get there.
You know, just go like that.
So you're concerned about endurance.
Yes, very concerned about endurance. It was ten rounds, and I didn't know how I was going to be feeling after the third round.
You turned it on in the eighth round. In the eighth round, you hit him with some big shots. Yeah. That was one of your best rounds.
Yeah, the eighth round was pretty good. Then I pulled my feet off the gas on the ninth round. And then the ten rounds, I'm like, oh, I feel good. This is the last round, right? I feel good.
That's when I started to do like the Superman punch or the stuff. For me, it was already a win.
You shocked the world, that's for sure. Did you have any mock fights in the gym? Like, did you bring any professional boxers and have like try to go eight, ten rounds in the gym?
Sparring.
Yeah, but like with no headgear, like smaller gloves. Did you do anything like that? replicated an actual professional boxing match? No. No?
We just do like a normal sparring, have a different sparring partner sometimes to push me. But we didn't do anything like that. You know, as an MMA fighter, we used to spar without gloves, without headgear and stuff. But you get into boxing, everything is so strict, so specific. And then you get to the point that you kind of like.
ask yourself like why taking a chance to hurt now and get, pull up of the fight.
Right.
I'm just going to train. I train the best that I could, that I can. Then I will get there, see, figure out what's happened.
And so, but from the time the negotiations started to the time of the fight, how much time did you have to prepare for this?
For the negotiation? No.
So you had the negotiations and then, once it was signed, how much time did you have to prepare for the actual fight itself? And were you preparing already, hoping you were going to have a boxing match?
Yeah, but it's different to like think that, oh, I might have a boxing match. I want to have a boxing match. Then, when you have a boxing match and knowing who you are going to fight is something different. You know, you prepare, the real preparation starts now. And between the moment that we signed the fight to the fight itself, it was over three months.
Because I know that it wasn't my field, you know, and I didn't have any,
and it's not like. I was in the gym training boxing every day. So it was basically four months. That's crazy. Yeah, I took a moment for a pre-camp.
I came back here because I was in Cameroon at the time. Then I came back here. My team and I, we work on like everything. Start like a pre-camp, you know, just train to get in shape. Start like sparring.
And then we started the sparring with three rounds. Wow. The first sparring was like three rounds. Move around, see. Then we started to work round after round, you know.
What I thought when I saw the fight is imagine if you had just gone into professional boxing, like ten years ago, how well you would do. If you, no MMA, no kicking, no wrestling, just professional boxing.
For you to do that well against a guy like Tyson Fury, who's that good.
I don't really know. And those are the stuff that I don't usually think about. But I think life sometimes just has a path for you. You follow the path, the destiny that life has for you. And you just be grateful.
Because, regardless of the fact that I didn't start ten years earlier, I didn't have that opportunity ten years earlier. Meanwhile, I had to discover MMA and have a great journey in MMA. Have a great experience in MMA, you know. So it's something that I will not regret, that. I will not beat that up over the opportunity of starting boxing.
early. Things just happen. I took my chance. I do what I can do. It's all about figuring out how far I can go.
What I can possibly do, you know. So I'm not an 18 years, 20 years old guy that is dreaming to have a career into this. But I still want to know what I can possibly do at this point of my life.
Yeah. What was the experience like when it was all over? What did it feel like when you just went ten rounds and a lot of people, including myself, thought you won?
Yeah. Oh, I feel very great. You know, like, regardless of the result, for me, knowing what I was going through, what was in my mind, like what's going to happen into this fight. First round, second round. Then I get in the tenth round.
Good. And I feel like I wasn't doing bad. So for me, that was a win. That was a satisfaction, you know. Right.
The result was other part of it, which didn't matter much. But I knew already that, if ever, because I couldn't guarantee that we would get in the tenth round. But if ever we get there, I wasn't expecting to win.
When you dropped him.
Definitely not.
When you dropped him in the second round, I jumped off the couch. I jumped in the air.
I would say something, you know, like I won this from the moment that they accepted the fight, that they signed the fight. Because I think I was very underestimated, you know. They didn't know that I could have done something, you know. If they had known that beforehand, maybe this fight would have never happened. Because they would have seen a risk.
And they wouldn't want to take that risk. So this was basically like less, with zero risk.
And it probably would have been different too, because there was no footage to prepare for you. Right. Like. the only footage that he could prepare was watching you fight in MMA.
Yes. He was...
There it is.
Why were you dancing in front of him?
When we started the fight, when the referee said, okay, you guys, go to your corner, he said, let me take you to school.
So that was.
. The dancing was like, I think you're a bad professor. You're a bad teacher.
That was the only reason why I did that.
He's a funny guy, man.
He's funny. He's very entertaining.
He's so entertaining.
He's just a show guy.
Yeah.
That's happened to really like being very talented in boxing, good at it. But he's an entertainer.
I mean, he's.
. The way he sells it. I mean, even the way he like was playing with his fat, like standing next to you, like rubbing his belly.
Like sometimes he will insult you. I don't know if he's insulting you or if he's making fun. But it's just funny that you have to laugh.
I really have nothing to say. He kept talking about how big your dick must be. He's a funny dude, man. He's a funny dude.
He said that since the first time we met. And he will put some stuff up sometime, that I'm like, what? And I really have a hard time understanding what he's saying. Oh, I do. So I swear to God.
And English is my first language.
And they have to translate to tell me what he said.
His English is hard to understand. The Gypsy King. He's quite a character. Did you hang out with him at all after the fight?
No, we didn't hang out. But I think we both respect each other. And I think he always... He always... I mean, he was entertaining, but he always show respect.
And I know that he respected me even from the beginning. It's not like this was after the fight. Even from the beginning, he could have said everything that he would say to make his show, to laugh, make people laugh. But he's very respectful. That's cool.
Yeah.
Was there any talk after the fight about a rematch?
Yes. There was even a rematch close.
How do you call it?
First regard of rematch close. There was something in the contract about the rematch close.
Was that if you beat him? Or if...
It was if I get in the 8th round.
Really?
Yeah. Wow. So the deal of the rematch was if I get in the 8th round.
So why didn't the rematch materialize?
I think it's the timing. I think it's a matter of the timing. Yeah.
So you go from that fight to the Anthony Joshua fight.
Yes.
So tell me about the preparation and leading up to that fight.
In fact, the preparation for the Anthony Joshua fight, then I started, you know, after having like 4 months of training camp for the Tyson Fury fight, I had this feeling. Then I get a little confident. now. I know how it works. Like 10 rounds, and then it was pretty good.
You know, the Tyson Fury fight, I think I sparred like 10 rounds for like 2 weeks. Yeah, like 4, sparring of 10 rounds, barely. But the Anthony Joshua fight, 6 weeks before the fight, I was... No, I wasn't 10.. No, the Tyson Fury...
Yeah. 4 weeks before the fight, I was already doing like 10 rounds. And I was feeling good, you know, even a little lighter. But things play out different. And I think, unlike the Tyson Fury fight, that nobody expected me to do anything.
Here, they were expecting me to do something. So, things played out a little different. And then we get in the fight week. And then every time that we're going to do something in the fight week, whether it's media, they're going to pick me up. And then I get there, I have to wait like 1 hour and a half before he arrives.
And there was like maybe the third day of the week that Dewey, Dewey Cooper, he said.
. Oh, he started to get really mad, upset about it. Like, yes, this is how they do to get fighters tired. But at the time, I didn't know what was going on, you know. So, I'm like, no, come, relax, Dewey, it's okay.
You know, I didn't know. until we get to the fight day. Fight day, receive an email, pick up time. I mean, this is one thing among others. Pick up time, 10.30 from the hotel.
And then, when they say 10.
30, by 10.
20, there is a car in your door waiting. We go to the supposedly fight time, between midnight to 1am. We get to the arena, 10.45.. There is a producer coming to the locker room. Say, oh, guy, we are running late on the broadcast.
Now we are going to go around 1.
45 each. I'm like, okay, 1.45, it's 10.45, three hours.
Oh, okay, you know.
So, what do you do? Do you eat? Do you sleep? What do you do when you know you have three more hours?
You don't know, you just stay there and then you have like a drug test guy around waiting for you to pee.
How far before the fight do you eat?
Usually, maybe like four, five hours. Yeah, like maybe five to six hours, and then you get some snacks in between, you know. And then, yeah, it was around 1.30 that Anthony Joshua arrived. I saw him, I'm like, so we're supposed to fight at 1.45, he's arriving at 1.30.. What does that mean?
So, they're playing games.
So, we fight at 1, at 3.
30.
Oh, wow.
At 3.
30.
. I've been in Saudi for almost two months, training to fight between midnight and 1.. That was my training time by 2, 3..
So, they wanted to keep you anxious, drag it on psychologically, put it in your head, you don't know when you're going to fight.
Pretty much. Yeah. But even at that time, I didn't know what was happening. Right. It was after everything that I'm like, what's going on?
Because I get to the point that I was so tired. I was in the locker room, eating meat, then sit down, feeling asleep. Then I tell Eric, Eric Nixon, like, bro, something's wrong.
I'm asleep. I feel like I want to sleep. Like, I'm sweating.
But we just keep doing. So, that's fight. I mean, not to say Anthony Joshua couldn't win me. I think if there's somebody that you can lose against him, he's the guy. And he's one of the best of doing it.
And this is definitely not on him, because he wasn't the guy that was sending all those emails, was organizing. So, I'm not blaming him about anything. But the organization, bro, nah. They did quite some stuff that wasn't fair. Wish on the Tyson fight was perfect.
Everything was perfect, because I wasn't a threat. I wasn't. Nobody cares about me. Everything was organized. We get there in the locker room, I think, was two hours before the fight properly.
Hmm. So, then I'm like.
Well, Anthony Joshua is a veteran. You know. He's been in the boxing game for a long time. For sure. And he knows all the different tricks.
They also obviously very much prepared for your style. They saw you fight Tyson Fury, so they had tape on you. As Tyson Fury did not have boxing tape. He didn't have any footage to study. But Anthony Joshua did.
And it was very clear that he knew you had certain tendencies. And there were certain things that you did with the Tyson Fury fight that he exploited in his fight.
Maybe. And then I think, again, I think he's capable to figure out everybody. I think he's capable to win everybody. But in this case, I feel like in some ways they stand in my way a little bit.
They stood in your way. Yeah. So, they played some games. Yeah. Well, they wanted to get the most advantage possible.
You know. Which is, that's, you know, smart. If you're their coach, their manager, that's what I would do too.
But it wasn't their coach that was organizing the fight.
So, you think it's the organization itself? That they set everything up in his favor?
The organization. I mean, yes. His team was part of the organization because it was Queensberry and Mushroom. Those emails was coming from there.
So, those are the people that told you to get there three hours earlier than you needed to be?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Those are the people that were sending the schedule, the five-week schedule. And every day would send everything, like pick-up time, the program, the schedule.
Have you had a chance to go back and watch the Anthony Joshua fight?
Yeah. I mean, I didn't. Yes, I watched it. What was your question?
What do you remember about the fight? What was different watching it?
Oh. Even, like, feeling it. It wasn't. Even before I went to watch it, I get in the ring.
I wasn't feeling myself. And the first round, when he knocked me down, like, I fell. And I was like, did I slip? Like, what exactly knocked me down, made me fall? Like, this punch?
Because I felt the punch, but it wasn't the punch that would knock me down. You know? So that's when I really get confused. at that time. I'm like, damn, what?
But this is the thing. From that moment, I get knocked down with a punch that wasn't that hard.
You don't think it was that hard?
No. He hit my hand before he hit my face. And I felt it. I felt the punch, but I wasn't on the floor, the first one. And then I get down, then stood up.
We finished the round. I went on my corner. But by the time I went on my corner, I never came back from that. I kept going. And I remember being in my corner, and Dewey was like, don't go on, southpaw.
He's waiting you on, southpaw. Do this champ. Do this champ. That was it. From there, I don't remember when I left the store to get in the second round.
Well, that was probably from the big punch in the second round too, right?
Yeah, but I'm talking about the first round.
Right, but the memory afterwards is always going to be cloudy after a knockout, especially a bad knockout like that.
Yeah, but I remember exactly what happened until we get to the store. I remember being there, having blurry vision.
The guy was in front of me. My team was in front of me speaking to me, and then the voice was getting distant.
So you think there was something wrong?
I don't know if it was the fatigue. I don't know what was it, but something wasn't right.
So something wasn't right. Forget about the punches he landed. Something else was wrong. Is that what you're saying? Yeah.
Something was wrong.
Do you think it's something you ate? Do you think it was something that someone gave you?
I have no proof. I don't know if maybe it's….
Did you get tested after the fight?
Maybe it's the fact that I get there at that time.
So just the fatigue and the anxiety of the hours and hours. I don't know if it's the fatigue. Right.
Yeah, but something wrong. I wanted to get…. First of all, when all those things happen, you are in the moment. You don't think. You don't get out of the fight and think about, like, go, get tested.
You know? Right. You process things and then see to understand, to see how it was wrong. But by the time they say, I think I need…. You have to do, like, within 12 hours to do, like, blood or urine.
12 and 24 hours. That was it. So I didn't do that. I can't say. it was that.
I don't know.
But… But it felt like something was wrong.
I wasn't…. It wasn't me. Yeah.
So did it feel like something was wrong, like, just plain fatigue? Or did it feel like something was wrong, like, maybe you were poisoned? Or maybe you were drugged?
Plain fatigue. Plain fatigue.
Fatigue.
Yeah.
So just fatigue. Yeah.
And the fatigue aspect.
Yeah. Well, this is also an aspect of experience, right? Because this is only your second professional boxing fight. Yes. And, you know, there's things that people do.
Like, they do very intelligent things to…. Like, Gervonta Davis, when he fought Ryan Garcia, he made him dehydrate, get down to a low weight, and then there was a clause in the contract where he couldn't gain more than 10 pounds before the fight itself. So he went into the fight dehydrated. Smart for a guy like Gervonta, who's a huge puncher, you know? So there's things that, like, experienced professionals that have been in the game a long time, will get a fighter to agree to.
that's not in their best interest. And then there's things that they can do to you, like make you wait all day and make you wait around, which will fatigue you.
Yeah. But there wasn't a thing or something in the contract that was forcing me to do something. The only thing was, like, to show up on time.
Right.
So that was everything. Because, like, before, all that, the week before, sparring, everything feels good. I spar way more, better, way more stronger than what I did on the Fury fight. Right. Even my sparring partner was different at that time.
You know, on the Fury fight, we were getting somebody in maybe after the six or eight rounds just to weigh me down. But the quality of the boxing wasn't that impressive, right? Here, it was different. And I was able to hold. I know that if I had to fall, it would take a little more to get me down.
Well, Anthony Joshua's a big puncher. He's a big puncher. He is. And he's fast. He's fast, and he's a one-punch knockout puncher, as opposed to Tyson Fury.
He can knock guys out with one punch, but really he wears guys out. He beats guys up and then takes them out. later. Like the Deontay Wilder fight, he beats him up and then he takes him out. Whereas Joshua can take people out with one shot.
He's a much bigger, physically much more powerful guy.
No, I agree with that. And I knew that.
I knew that.
What would you do differently if you could do the Anthony Joshua fight again?
That's the problem. We did everything right. Like?
Everything right in preparation.
In preparation, we did everything right. You know, sometimes. You know, like when, for example, I fought Stipe. I went back, and I could have made a whole list of what I did wrong. What I could have done better.
And that's why, like, even after that fight, my next fight against Derrick Lewis was so bad, because I was still working on the list of what I have done wrong. But here, we were very disciplined. We did everything, and everybody was professional. You can't say, this person did this wrong. This should have been like this.
This should have been like that.
I don't know. It's so different, too, because you're going from no professional boxing fights to two of the very best, not just in the world, but two of the very best ever. Anthony Joshua, Olympic gold medalist, elite fighter, an incredible athlete. I mean, he's so good. So, did you think, like, at all about having fights with maybe some guys that were below that level to get more experience?
Like, after the Tyson Fury fight, maybe fighting a guy who's, like, ranked 15th or 16th, you know?
I never thought about that.
You just went for the money. And the money and the big fight. The big fight is obviously...
Yes, won the big fight. So, like, for example, after the Tyson Fury fight, if I go for another guy, top 15, like, what's the goal here? I mean, again, I'm not 20 years old, I'm not 25, that I have a plan to go up the ranking. Right. And get to the championship.
I want.
Just get that money.
Yeah, get the money. Get the big fights. The big fight. Out of the big fight. So, that was the goal.
Yeah. Well, you achieved that goal.
Because, like, first of all, going to the Tyson Fury fight, you didn't know if there was a plan after that, if there was another fight after that. And then, after the Tyson Fury fight, the next fight that you have a call for was the Anthony Joshua fight.
Were you trying to get a different fight after the Tyson Fury fight? Like, after the Tyson Fury fight, were you trying to get a rematch? Or were you just willing to take whatever they are offering you?
The rematch was there. We know we had the rematch, but he was going to fight Yusek first. Thing. that's supposed to happen in December, and he couldn't.
Right, he got cut.
Yeah, he couldn't. He couldn't fight in December. So, I wasn't really on something. I was just there, and then I get the offer of Anthony Joshua. Then I'm like, let's go.
Hmm. Yeah.
So, where do you stand now? What are you planning on doing now?
What do I plan on doing now? I think I still have a couple in me. Boxing fights. Yeah, a couple of boxing fights. Yeah, basically boxing fights.
I have a couple of MMA fights. And I think I'm going to fight MMA fight by the end of the year with PFR. I'm going to have to fight in Saudi again.
Really?
Yeah.
Well, one of the things that has been discussed that apparently the UFC might be open to, because the Saudis throw around so much money, is the potential of a joint promotion. A cross promotion. With you versus Jon Jones.
Make it happen.
That is what the world wants to see. Because when you have a guy like yourself that knocks out Stipe, becomes the undisputed UFC heavyweight champion, and then, through negotiation, only decides to relinquish the belt, everybody, even though Jon Jones is the champion. now, everybody's like, yeah, but you didn't win the title against the champion. And you were the most compelling fight in the heavyweight division, for sure for Jon Jones. Hmm.
Well, that's what I wish. But, you know, this takes a lot more than what I want or what I wish. Right.
There's a lot going on.
Yeah, there's a lot going on.
So tell me, what is the status of your deal with the PFL now? So how does that work?
It's working pretty good. We have a good relationship. I have some fights. Again, I will be fighting by the end of the year.
Do you know who you're fighting?
I think Reynan Ferreira is the guy.
That's the guy that knocked out, Ryan Bader.
Yeah.
He's dangerous. He's legit.
I've been telling people about this guy for, what, almost two years.
He's a big dude too.
I say watch this guy. Yeah. But very athletic.
Very athletic, fast.
Fast hand, one-two, knee stuff. Like, very athletic. Yeah. So I think it's going to be him.
And you think that fight will be in Saudi Arabia as well?
Yeah, that's what the PFL is working on.
Interesting. Do you know when that will take place?
October. October. Yeah, they're working on October. All right. It's not finalized yet, but they were talking about October 19..
Isn't that around the same time the UFC has that big Abu Dhabi card? Don't? they have a big Abu? Can you go to the UFC's website and see what their Abu Dhabi card is? I believe, I want to say, somewhere around the end of October, there's a big UFC card in Abu Dhabi.
25th? I know it. October 25th? So October 25th. Yeah.
Yeah. That's one week after.
Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if the UFC has that card finalized. Do they have that card finalized?
They always put on a big fight when they go to Abu Dhabi. Abu Dhabi is always a big card. A lot of, like, top-level fighters on that card.
Yeah. Even this Riyadh one is going to be a big card.
No, I'm sure.
If we make it happen, they're going to stack that card.
Do you know who else would be on that card with you?
I don't. Again, it's not finalized yet, but I think Cedrin Doumbé would be on that card.
Doumbé, I love that dude.
Yeah.
I love that dude. I've had him on the podcast before.
He's an entertainer too.
He's a comedian.
He's a comedian. He's crazy.
He's funny. He's very funny, but god damn, he can fight.
No, he can fight.
How crazy was that fight?
He can back up whatever he says.
Oh, yeah. He's an elite kickboxer, elite kickboxer. He trained at my gym in L.A. When I had my gym in L.A., his trainer came when he did my podcast, and he had a workout session. And, man, his workout sessions are crazy.
He's so cardio-intensive. They're doing, like, sprints on the treadmill, and they run to the heavy bag, sprints on the heavy bag, run back to the treadmill. I was like, damn. Like, watching that, I was like, no wonder why this guy has a crazy gas tank.
Well, he was a champion at Glory for a long time.
That wasn't a mistake.
He was knocking everybody out. Not just knocking everybody out, but the way he did it, like, he melted guys. He put pressure on them. Knockout, power, but intelligence. Just great technique, but the cardio was crazy.
And I remember thinking, like, this dude doesn't get tired. And then, watching him train, I'm like, oh, well, there it is. I mean, he's not just doing, like, normal mitt work. Like, I've seen other guys work out where they do mitt work, they do their things. Like, his stuff is cardio-intensive, man.
He wants to have a full gas tank when he gets in there.
Yeah, he knows what he's looking for.
How crazy was that fight where they called the fight because he stepped on a piece of glass inside the cage?
I don't know, man. And I don't even know what that referee was doing. All they had to do was pull it out of his toe.
He's like, hey, I stepped on something. I stepped on something in my toe. Fight's off. Fight's off.
Yeah, I think you stopped the fight, and you even checked the canvas. if there's no more piece of glass on the canvas.
That should be overturned.
Because that was dangerous.
It is dangerous, but that should be a no contest. There's no way that should count as a loss.
That was a no contest fight.
No contest at all. No chance.
How the fuck does another guy get a win? He's not complaining about, like a eye poke or something that didn't happen. Nothing. A piece of glass.
A piece of glass. And he's pointing to his toe, and he's saying, just let me get it out of my toe. Yeah, it shouldn't be there. Let me get this out of my toe. It shouldn't be there.
And, you know, things happen. Who knows how it even got in there? Who knows what happened? The odds are just some random freak accident. He steps on something that nobody.
You know what? It could have been stuck to someone's shoe, and someone's walking around the cage with that stuck in their shoe, and it falls out of their shoe, and it sticks in his toe. He stands on it. He gets it in his toe, and he just points down. They say, stop the fight.
Yeah. And he's like, I lost?
He pointed down twice. Like first, and the referee said fight.
See if you can find that, Jamie.
The second time?
I was reading someone's explanation of what Mark Goddard did, and they said he did what you're supposed to do. Like a fighter can't ask for a timeout.
And so like. No, no, that's wrong. It wasn't a timeout, though. It's not a timeout.
There's a foreign object inside the cage.
Yeah, a foreign object.
That falls under the timidity sections of the referee's guidelines.
No, no.
Timidity? This is just someone's explanation. Did they say timidity? That's what this says. Oh, that's ridiculous.
No, no, no.
Oh, that's ridiculous. I'll find it. See if you can find the footage, though. Because the footage is, it's so obvious there's something wrong. The referee should just say time.
Ask him what he's saying. Like what? It wasn't like. he was in trouble, and he was looking for a timeout.
Yeah. He was dead. In the middle of the fight. In the 50-50 position. Yes, yes, yes.
Okay, break the fight. Break the fight. It's not like nobody is losing position.
Exactly. So. here it is. He's standing there.
Yeah. It's not like nobody is losing position from that. It's not like he take a punch. I want a recovery from that.
Fucking crazy.
Yes. No.
I just don't understand that at all. I mean, I haven't talked to Mark about it.
That wasn't a good decision.
I don't understand. I mean, maybe he's hindered by the rules. Maybe that's just what the rules state you have to do. When a fighter says you have to stop something for a second, I don't know what the rules are in terms of that. I've never seen that happen before.
I've never seen someone step on something inside the octagon and then point down to their foot. I've never seen it. So I don't. But, man, what a shame. But he came after that, and he won.
He won his next fight. He's going to fuck up a lot of people, man. I was bummed out that he went to the PFL. I wanted that guy in the UFC.
He can fuck up a lot of people.
Oh, and, you know, he's got a lot of years on the clock, too.
He said he wanted to go to the UFC, and then they gave him some sort of contract, and then I'm like, no, bro.
They gave him a bad contract?
Yeah. That's unfortunate. I think he said that on the tweet, right?
I don't know.
Yeah, he made some tweet about, like, his salary. That doesn't make any sense.
Well, that's crazy, because that guy could be a superstar. He could be a superstar.
He's so fun.
Yeah.
He's a superstar. The guy filled up the Bessie Arena in Paris.
Yes. In France, he's a superstar. Yeah. I mean, and that could translate 100% to the United States and to the rest of the world. I mean, he's that good.
He's that good. Yeah. He's one of the best in the world, and the fact that he's over there, just like, well, great for the PFL. Great for the PFL, you know, but for the UFC, like, that's a big loss. Like, anytime, you can get an elite kickboxer, and he did a lot of training.
He did a lot of training in wrestling, went to, AKA, trained there. He's really worked on his takedown defense.
He wants something. Yeah. He definitely wants something, and he's working on it.
And the guy has serious discipline and workout. And he's just smart, man. And the way he fights, he's just like, he sets guys up, and he talks so much shit before the fight, too. He's fun.
Did you watch his first fight at the PFL? Yeah. The guy brought a mattress.
Like, what the fuck is this? So Jordan, go to sleep. And he put the guy to sleep. Yeah. In a few seconds.
Well, the difference between his level of striking and most guys in that division, level of striking is like this.
Yeah, there's a huge gap.
A giant gap.
The other guy was just trying to compensate with their wrestling, or jujitsu or something. And even if you don't have a better wrestling than him, at least you grab him, you avoid some punch.
Yes. And the thing about him is that every fight starts standing up. So one thing, if you're a really good wrestler, you have to take the guy to the ground. But the fight starts standing. You know, with Cedric, the fight starts in his best place.
And then you see how he was fighting his second fight. He was very low. He went very low. Like, okay, you're a wrestler. Yeah.
Let's see how you're going to get that level change. Yeah. Like, I'm already down here. Mm-hmm.
He's very intelligent. Very smart.
And again, his level of striking. And we see that with guys like Alex Pereira. Right? Like, that level of striking. When you're a glory champion, the level of striking is so high.
It's so above the average MMA fighter. Yeah. Then when he gets in there with these guys, they don't want none of that.
And then, as soon as they start to get a little wrestling defense and stuff like that, they become a trouble. You can't take him down anymore. Exactly. And then you stand in front of him. He smoke you.
Yes.
What could you do?
Well, you see that with Alex Pereira now. Yeah. His takedown defense is much better. And he keeps getting better. He's evolving so quickly.
Because he's been training.
Yeah.
He's been training for so long.
He's been training for so long. And then he's also training with Glover. You know, Glover Teixeira.
Glover Teixeira, yes.
Who's also a former champion. Glover was a guy that was locked out of America for six years. He couldn't come to America for six years because he had visa issues. And he was like the boogeyman. We would all hear about him in Brazil.
Everybody would talk. Yeah. Glover was like one of those guys before he entered into the UFC. And I think he wasted his prime, unfortunately, in Brazil. I won't say wasted his prime.
But I think his prime years were outside of the United States. That's why, when he won the title, he was like 42..
43.
. 43?. What exactly is a prime years for a guy that won a title at 44? At 43.. I think you get to the point to think that maybe 43 is the prime years.
If he won the title at that year, right? Yeah.
You watch that game, like 43?
. He's not that old. You know, I think at 43 you can still do something.
Yeah. Well, it depends on the division, right? Like George Foreman, won the heavyweight title at 45..
Yeah. Yeah.
Heavyweight is more. Yeah, it's different. Because they don't push on that gas, you know. Right, right, right. They throw some punch and move.
How old is Cedric?
Cedric Ndombe? Yeah.
I don't know. I want to say he's young.
Yeah, he's young. He's young. He might be 32.. How old is he?
31.
That's a good age. At 31.. Yeah. Yeah.
And with that level of kickboxing, whoo. And power, man. You know, like, not just like technique, but power and endurance. Like it's a rare combination he has of very, very good endurance and extreme power.
Yeah, he hit like a deaf guy. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, he's a fucking killer. I'm excited to see what happens. Do you understand the PFL's point system? Do you understand that system?
What do you mean?
You know how they have points? Like, if you get a knockout in the first round, you get one point or three points. Yeah. What the fuck are they doing?
Why are they doing that? That's for the regular season. I think it's just to push people for a better fight. Everybody knows that you get a knockout, you deserve something better. You get a finish, you get something.
Right, but you can't always get a finish. But what if you're fighting a guy that's like your level? Like you're both elite and you're both fighting in like this incredible fight. You shouldn't be penalized because you can't take out a fighter who's the best in the world in the first round. That seems crazy to me.
Yeah, but either way, if you win a fight, you're winning something. Yeah. You just win more. It's like having a win bonus or something. I don't like win bonuses either.
I hate win bonuses. Yeah, me too. I don't like it.
I don't like it. I like boxing. set up better. where you have a contractual, you have a contract. You're going to get paid $10 million, whatever it is.
That's what you get. You don't get $10 million, but you only get $5 million if a shitty judge gives it to the other guy, which we've seen so many times in the UFC. Guys lose half their paycheck because of a bad decision.
Yeah, but what does that benefit? Well, who does it benefit?
I don't know who it benefits. I don't think it benefits anybody. I think it's bad for everybody. I think it's bad for the audience because they're like, what? Because it makes them angry.
It's bad for the fighter, for sure. If a fighter loses their paycheck, loses half their paycheck because of a bad decision.
How about the promotion?
I don't even think it's good for the promotion. I think it's unfair. I don't think it makes any sense. No guy's trying. At the elite level, everyone's trying to win.
They're all trying to win. Yeah. No one's not trying to win.
Absolutely.
No one's going to just coast.
For the most part, you get there by winning. Yes. Yeah. That's how you get there.
The whole thing is the glory of victory. It's what you're trying to do. You're not going to fight less hard. I just don't understand the logic behind it. I think it's a flawed concept.
I think it's something that never existed in combat sports before MMA and really shouldn't exist. I think fighters fight their best, especially at the elite level. They fight their best.
Yeah. I agree with you, because when you lose a fight, at least you should get your full pay on that fight. Yes. But the loss won't help you. It will disadvantage you on the next fight.
Right. On the next negotiation. I'm like, oh, you lose two fights in a row. Right. So you don't have a power position anymore.
Exactly. Just to pick half of your purse because you lose a fight. Yeah.
It's crazy. I don't like it at all. No. I don't like it at all. It doesn't make sense to me.
I've heard people try to argue it, and every time they try to make an argument for it, I'm like, I don't get it. It's not fair for the fighters. Fighters only have, if they're really lucky, what's the most fights that an elite fighter in the UFC has? Like 50, 45, 50 fights? Maybe.
55?
Maybe. There's a few guys that have that level of fights. Most guys, they top off way less than that.
Oh, way, way less.
Yeah, way less.
By the time you start your career, if you already have an injury, good luck. Right. Good luck to reach 25..
Especially ACL surgery, you're out for a year. Shoulder surgery, you're out for a year. Broken hand, you're out for five months.
It might never be the same. Yeah. And most people, it's not like there's an age to start. Like, oh, you start at 20 or 25.. Right.
Some people will get there at 30, over 30.
You started training so late. How old were you when you started training?
27.
Yeah, that's crazy.
Yeah, I was 27.
. But that was only when I could have trained. Right. Yeah.
You only have a certain amount of years.
Yeah, but just want to do the best out of those years.
Of course, but for you to be fighting on a system that penalizes you if there's a bad judge and you miss half your paycheck. Does the PFL do win bonuses, too? Do they do the same thing?
I don't know exactly.
Your contract is probably different than everybody else's.
Yes, my contract is different. No, either way, I wouldn't go for that win bonus stuff. I have nothing against bonus, but don't split my paycheck into talking about win bonus. No, give me my paycheck. If you want to give a bonus for the win, let's do another deal on that one.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.
Because whether I lose or I win, I train, I get prepared for the fight. I come, I give everything for that fight. I should get paid.
Yes.
And the same thing that I give in that fight to lose could have get me to win.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I agree. And so now the PFL and Bellator are one organization.
now, right? The PFL acquired Bellator? Yes. Is that what's going on? Yes.
Do the Saudis have something to do with that as well? Don't they own part of it?
They invest in the PFL, yes. In the main PFL, because there's a main PFL, a house PFL that has the PFL and the Bellator now. And then now they're having, like a regional PFL, like a PFL Mina that launched this year, and then PFL Africa that's launching next year.
And that's your shirt? Yeah. And so you're a part of that as well, right?
Oh, yeah. That was the biggest, I think that was the biggest reason for me in that contract. The PFL Africa part was the most important one in that contract.
Before that, I was trying to like, even to the UFC, I have requested to be like, oh, I want to be the UFC ambassador in Africa. I want to do something out there. I'm like, oh, no, we don't know. You know, this is not, we don't. And then I get the PFL.
They say, okay, we're doing this, we'll do that. They show me the roadmap, like, okay, we launched PFL Africa 2025.. You are the PFL Africa chairman. I'm like, which extent? Because I don't want that bullshit of paper chairman or whatever it is.
Like, at which extent? Like, what exactly are you seeing in PFL Africa? And then they put it out and give, show me some element. I'm like, good. Then I'm on board.
Well, that is one good thing about going over to the PFL, because you have so much value to them. Like, for you coming over, you were the undisputed heavyweight champion of the UFC. You come over to the PFL. Everybody knows who you are. Now.
it elevates the PFL. So it's nice because it allows you to do more things.
And to be honest, one thing, I have a healthy relationship. You know, it's peaceful. Get to the point of my life that I really get tired or sick of drama.
Sometimes I just get into something, into some, find myself in the middle of some drama, and then I just walk away. Whatever you want to say, you say something. You might say I disrespect you. You say, oh, ideas are that. Bro, I don't have so much energy to give into that.
So that was part of what was going on with the UFC. There was a lot of drama.
That's, yeah. And that will take a lot out of you. You get to the point that you're like, I just want this to be over. I just want it to be over. Get back to my life.
But you're already in the middle. Whether you want to go back, you have to deal with drama. If you have to go forward, you have to deal with drama. So you better keep going forward.
Yeah, especially, I mean, how much time do you have left? How many more years do you think you're going to be fighting?
It doesn't matter. I mean, soon, 38.. And I think I'm going to be, I really want to retire in my, as they say, I want to leave the sport before the sport leaves me. Smart. Yeah, so I'm thinking in my average, like 41..
So three more years.
Yeah, 41.
. Like that.
Do you have a thought of how many more boxing fights versus how many more MMA fights you want to do?
Not exactly. I think. I will take it how it comes. I'll take it how it comes.
And so the next fight will be MMA, definitely?
Or maybe boxing?
Maybe in my 40s, I still feel like I have it. You know? Right. If I feel like at 41, I feel like I have it. Well, you keep going away so well.
Yeah.
Keep going away so well.
Yeah, exactly. Keep regenerating. Yeah. And then take one at a time, you know? But what I really don't want to do is to, like, wake up and go to the gym.
Like, I'm forced, you know? Right, right, right. If I feel like I have it or I'm excited, oh, today is a sparring day. I'm going to get there. Whether I'm going to beat somebody up or they're going to beat me up, either way, I'm excited.
Right. You know, if I still have that, I keep going. Right, right. But as soon as I don't have that, even if I'm not 40 yet, I think it's a sign. It's a call out.
Yeah. Well, that's intelligent. That's smart. The way you phrased it, I like the way you phrased it. Leave the sport before the sport leaves you.
Yeah. Because we've all seen guys who hung around too long.
I would still always do the sport. I would never really leave the sport. But the competition at that level, you know, you need to be ready. You need to be into it. You need to want to be there.
Yes. You don't just want to do it because, okay, I have to. No. You don't go play with punches, because you have to. Right, right, right, right, right.
You better want to. Yeah. Yeah.
So do you know for sure that you'll be fighting MMA next, or is it possible that a big boxing match could present itself and you would do that next?
I would say MMA next.
Definitely.
Yeah, I would say MMA next. Because I'm supposed to fight, it's been over a year, a little over a year now, since the PFA agreement, and then I'm supposed to have a fight in a year. So now we are getting a little out of the timeline, for sure. And by the time we were figuring out who should be my opponent, and I think things are very clear now, Renan Ferreira made himself very clear that he's a challenger that should make the fight. He's the opponent that can make that fight happen.
And let's assume you get past that, will you then decide whether or not you're going to fight MMA next or boxing next? Because one of the things about the PFL is there's not a lot of challenges, there's not a lot of very compelling challenges for you there, unfortunately. At least now. They could sign some more top-flight heavyweights. Who knows what happens with many people?
Who knows what happens with Jon Jones? I don't know what happens with any of these guys. He could wind up going to the PFL. Who fucking knows?
He could.
If they come up with some big money, you could get a lot of people that will be willing to go over there.
Yeah.
I mean, I think after this fight, I'll see what happens. I don't really have a clear mind on what will happen, but I will say most likely boxing.
Most likely boxing after that?
Yeah, most likely boxing.
Do you have an opponent in mind?
No. No? Absolutely not. We will see the landscape and what I can get. Who I can get.
Because my expectation, as you were asking me earlier, like how many fighters do I think I can do in MMA or boxing, I think if I get a good four-fight plan in boxing, I think that could be good. You know?
You get a good four-fight and then you build who and who should be next. That could be my potential retirement plan.
Well, it sounds like you already made a good amount of money.
Yeah, I have made a good amount of money, but you also have to remember that I started this sport for passion. You don't start the sport for the money, because at first there is no money. Right. At first it's just punch flying over your head all over and you have to dodge and then fight and not get paid. Fight for free for quite some time.
I love the sport. I still love the sport. I love the sport. I love combat sport. I love fighting and I think I'll do it until I feel like I cannot do it anymore.
Is boxing more unique to you because it's a new challenge?
Boxing is different to me, because even the muscles' memory are not the same. The functionality of my body is not the same. Unlike MMA, I know every single action in MMA, every single moment. I've been there tens of times. I know.
I get this. But boxing, you're still like, okay. You might get even in some position and get stressed because you've never been there. You don't know. You have to figure it out.
Right. Instead of it being instinctual. Yeah.
Until you get there two or three times, then you're like, ah, it's okay. I can deal with it. MMA, I go in a MMA fight with a knee injury. I'm still like, I get this. But boxing is very different.
You basically know that. Questioning yourself about if you can handle this. It's not like, I get this.
Right, right, right.
It's different.
There's a lot of thinking because it's a new thing for you. Yeah. When you train for boxing, I know you have Dewey Cooper, you have Eric Nixick. Did you bring other people in to help train you in boxing?
Yeah. I brought John Bumba from France. He assists Dewey sometimes because he has a very good amateur style, which I think is something that I still need to build in my game.
Other than that, I have Tripp, which is my strength and conditioning coach, so I put those elements down.
Did you get a chance to spar any top heavyweights in America?
Top heavyweight like who? I would say Carlos Thakam, Guido. He's at top right now. He's my other sparring partner. But in America, not other top.
I get Jeremiah Milton as well, but not other big names in America.
Which is even more impressive, your performance against Tyson Fury, when you consider you really didn't even spar elite heavyweights.
Listen, I think sometimes we don't give credit to some people because they don't just have a name. Because they don't have a stage to play on.
Right.
And we think like, oh, he's nobody. Oh, he's not elite. Let me give you an example. Before Andy Ruiz fought Anthony Joshua, would you think about him as an elite fighter?
No, a lot of people have no idea.
But he was still there, and he was just as good as he is right now. But he's unusual. He has a scene to be seen, to be exposed, so nobody cares about him. And if you say, oh, I spar with Andy Ruiz, I'm like, yes, but you haven't sparred with the elite. You see?
And there's a lot of people like that out there.
Right. A lot of people that haven't got their shot yet, but they have a little talent.
They haven't got their shot, but they are there. They are present. They are elite.
Well, when you first made your way, and when you told that story on the podcast of your journey, leaving Cameroon and making your way and getting turned back so many times, when you first arrived and you finally got to France, you wanted to be a boxer.
No, even before I left, I wanted to be a boxer. Even a decade before I left, I wanted to be a boxer. That wasn't even a question. I always knew what I wanted.
So when it finally went full circle, and you became a boxer again, did it feel like, oh, this is how it was supposed to be?
I was living my dream. There is no way that... I don't think there is a way that things are supposed to be. You get what you get, and then you be grateful, and then you make the best out of it. Yeah.
You know. So I was living the dream. You know, I ended up having the fight, having to fight two best boxers in the world.
after having a great MMA career. Not bad from a guy coming from where I came from.
No, it's amazing.
Basically from having the path that I had. You know, and who knows? Some good things might still happen.
Oh, some good things, I'm sure, will still happen. But your path is incredible, and I encourage anybody that hasn't heard it to go back and listen to the first podcast you and I did together, where you explained it. I was stunned. I remember. for the rest of the day, all I could think about was your story and how insane it is that what you had to go through to finally make it to Europe.
Incredible story.
You know, just as I was saying earlier, because some people haven't been exposed, they haven't got a big stage, like. they don't care about them. There are a lot of people out there with a better story than mine, with a better, stronger than mine, that even me, I'm impressed. I'm like, bro, how do you do that? I don't think I could have done that, you know?
But, and there are a lot, not like one or like two, three, a lot of people, you know? But I think I happen to be the one that have seen and have been exposed. My story has been exposed to the world.
You went through that struggle.
I have the Joe Rogan experience to tell my own story, which they don't have.
Well, I'd be happy to have them on too, if they had a story like yours and the success that you've had from that. It's very inspiring and it speaks to the human spirit, because that's what people love to hear about someone who did not give up and struggled so hard. How many times did you get sent back? Seven, eight times?
Six times. Six times. In the ocean, six times.
Yeah.
And then I made it seven times.
Crazy.
Seven is a magic number.
It is a magic number, right? It's a lucky number.
I made it seven. Yeah.
It's an incredibly inspirational story. And I love the fact that you're dedicated to doing this thing in Africa now and to give more people an opportunity and to give them a path towards a career.
You know, regardless of what you might think of my life, I think I'm a very blessed guy. I think I'm a very lucky guy. First of all, I think even if, when I explain, you might not really understand where I came from, and to imagine that I'm here today calling a shot, bro. It's crazy. It's just insane.
You know. So I think I'm a very lucky guy. God has really blessed me. And then I also think those blessings come with a lot of opportunities that I can bring back. You know, because when I was there for so many times, I can't tell you how many times that my hope was to somebody to come do something.
To some good Samaritan, to take some action that I would take advantage of. You know. Then it happened that I've been blessed to be the guy that can do that. And even without taking.
even without that taking anything out of me. You know. So, like I'm like he would be a sin not to do. Not to do something. You know, like, for example, for the PFA Africa.
My dream about that. What gets me excited about that is just seeing myself not have to leave Africa, as I did, and then have to compete in the good platform like that. Have to make a living. Have to fight in the world class fighter in that level and just stay at home. Right.
I don't have to risk all this life. go through all this stuff to the ocean, through the ocean, the barbed wire, the prison stuff that I've been through to do that. You know, I just have to stay home and do that. Right. So now it's a new.
it's a platform that is going to give opportunity to many people that maybe have a plan to go through that same path and that might not have made it. You know, they're just doing it at home.
That's beautiful.
How could you not do? think of doing something like that when you have the opportunity and it's not like oh, it's a war that they carry and put on your head, and a burden that you have to carry is the opportunity that you can just help participate and make it happen.
So tell me, how does this play out? Do you establish gyms in Africa? Are you going to put a gym in Cameroon? How are you going to do this?
I have two gyms in Cameroon already.
Oh, you do?
Yeah. Through my foundation I have one gym for six years now.
Oh, wow.
Yeah. And then the second gym has been around for almost two years and we built that one with a partner. I mean, a partner helped us to build like our project.
with the foundation, and then they joined us, Premier Bed. they joined us to that to build that gym for us. A very big, big ass gym. So we have that too, and we were in the project to build the third one, but with the PFL. one thing that I requested, and then it was granted, was that everywhere that we are going to do, we're going to try to build gyms around, because, yes, it's good to bring PFL, to bring competition around, but remember so many, many of those people.
they have nothing, many of those kids that want to fight. they might be training in the beach, on the beach they might be training they don't really have a gym to train at, but yet you're expecting them to compete at the highest level. so it's at least good to have a system that will help them. you know it's like having a garden. Right.
Yeah. Having a garden to create talent that you need for your organization, you know. so helping them to help you, because at the end of the day you need talent, at the end of the day, talent needs organization. so the thing is that with PFL Africa, we're going to build gyms that fighters will use and develop, and then we're going to also implement help, like get coaches experience coaches that can go and teach and also teach another coach how to properly train at that coach at that level, stuff like that. so that's that's the goal.
you know. it's about like building something. it's not like here that you come and everything is established and you have your promotion and go. no, it's like building something working from the grass, yeah.
that's beautiful. so Africa is obviously a huge continent and there's so many countries in it.
full of talent.
what is the scene like in Africa right now in terms of like? what are the local promotions and how many of them are there, and how many like? how many like young, talented fighters do you see that are coming out of there that could eventually come over to PFL or the UFC, or Bellator or 1FC or any of the large organizations?
okay. so you ask me the question, like many Americans what is the scene in Africa, in the different countries? Africa is 52 countries right and I've never been in 5 of them right, I don't do it, so I know.
South Africa has a large scene. you know. obviously Drekka's Duplicity is from South Africa. there's a lot of good fighters from South Africa.
they have an organization. I think it's EFC, something like that, Nigeria, Nigeria. they've been doing good. they also have, I think it's African Knockout that Ousmane Camero is part of, right and there are also some regional organization. they might be smaller or not like quite popular.
is there one large organization over there at all?
no, not yet.
so most of them are fairly small.
yeah, because again you have to build everything from the scratch right so everything. everybody is trying to do the best out of what he gets right right. like, if you have a good organization, you need to build gym. you need to give those fighters where to train. you need to help them about like.
get experience.
get experience, get training top coaches, even get top coaches, yeah, and then more people training. at least they have training partners, which is not they don't have. right. you have seen, I have seen a lot of some African fighter that are really good, but they don't have. they'll have to go somewhere else because they don't have a training partner, you know, but with with this.
program they're gonna have. it's gonna be a whole ecosystem, a whole ecosystem in the fact that you're gonna have a gym, that you're gonna train and then maybe provide a fighter for who, gonna fight in the promotion and that.
money and then that money will attract people, you know, um, will attract other people to train, because he, he have seen other one making a living out of training. he have seen that is possible. he have seen the opportunity right next to his door, like, right, they are here. I don't have to travel, it's not in America anymore, it's not in Europe anymore, it's here. I just have to stay here and get dedicated, so it's possible.
and it's interesting too if the PFL has a, I mean if they establish PFL Africa. the beautiful thing is that if they have top level fights over there and then they take those fights and they broadcast them all over the world, then there's so much opportunity.
yes, I mean the. the fighter of PFL Africa, will not only be seen in Africa, not to mention that the champions of the PFL Africa, just as PFL MENA and PFL Europe, they will all come together to fight for the main PFL title. you know so.
that's exciting.
everybody is getting that big stage. they are all working, they are all still under, like the main PFL, yes, you see, which is something that is very interesting and then will give more, more spotlight, more opportunity, also get attention of media. and then who says media? says attention of sponsors that will go maybe to gym, to fighters, and that create, that will create the ecosystem around, that media interest sponsor come around and then fighter get paid and then maybe sparring partner get paid or I don't know, he has assistant or somebody working work for him, get paid and the money is now in the loop everybody.
do you see yourself, after you retire from fighting, going into a coaching and mentoring role for fighters? do you see yourself being more of an executive position, like working with either the PFL or whoever?
I don't see really. I never see myself as a coach. I don't have like a vocation for that. it's not something that I have. I look.
I'm looking forward to although.
I see myself like maybe stay in the sport. I also don't see myself as a manager. that's a hard.
job.
and yeah, I know.
a lot of bullshit. yeah, a lot of bullshit.
like.
you.
I just think that to be. it's a job that you think like to be good at it. you need to be screwing somebody.
right.
most likely, not always, but most likely.
might be on the table.
so I don't see myself like that, but I see myself really like working on, like the growth of the sport basically in Africa, and again, that's why, like the PFL, Africa comes to me like the writing yeah, you know the retirement plan thinking that I could be focused on been working on. I know how Africa works perfectly. I know how PFL works perfectly. I know Pete Murray and Don Davis they are very excited about it, but, bro, they are white people from America and they don't know how Africa works.
I am from Africa and I know the deep ground of Africa and I know the challenge there, I know the problem there and I think that's where I will impact. I think the role of executive will be like it's some fancy thing that, yes, I might have, but I think my good job is to work on the field, because I know the problem, the root and the problem there. what could be done, what needs to be done, what they need. I think that's what I will be best at.
also for young.
fighters. it's cool to be chairman of PFL Africa, but I'm not going to sit in the office. I'm a chairman and wear suit and tie everyday to run.
but I.
think for you, for a young fighter, there's no greater source of inspiration than a guy like yourself. if you look at your career, you've only been fighting for 10 years. look at all you've accomplished. UFC heavyweight champion fought two of the best boxers alive. international superstar.
you made millions of dollars. that is the height of inspiration. don't say that.
on mic, Joe. sorry, everybody knows, yeah, but when you say that out loud, maybe you get some lawsuit, you know.
money is like honey, you always attract bees.
that's so true. that's so true a lot of stingers out there. so let's forget about the money. but just knowing that you came, especially again if someone hears your story of how hard it was for you to literally essentially walk from Cameroon to Morocco and then make it all the way over to Europe and then make a career in fighting and then make it to the United States, get into the UFC and then, in a matter of a few short years, become the UFC heavyweight champion for young fighters. that's like like that guy did it.
he did it. he did. he came from where I came from. I can do it now. once someone has done it, it makes it more accessible, at least mentally, to a lot of people.
yeah, absolutely, and I think that's the fundamental idea about my foundation, the reason why I did a foundation. for me, he was just so. not only those kids can have access in the gym, which is something that me, growing up, I was just dreaming about it. the only gym that I have seen until I was 22 was the gym that I saw. whether in my dream or in the TV, I never see a real gym, even though I always wanted to do combat sport.
but I thought, if you build a nice gym, not only those kids have access. it makes them have this feeling, this connection with reality like, oh, the thing that I always see in TV is here. it's possible, you know. and then the guy that maybe I have seen on TV or heard about is also here, like he's around. he came here, so it's possible, you know, because.
so the idea of the foundation was just to motivate kids, allow them to be believe in themselves, and I think it's still what we're working on to help them believe, trust, have a trust in themselves, a self believing, have a self confident in themselves, and this doesn't matter what they want to do in life. you might want to be a doctor, you might want to be a lawyer, accountant, journalist, whatever you want to do, but I do think that a guy that believes, somebody that believes in himself, success for that guy is just a matter of time, and you can be a champion in whatever you do see, like you don't have to be a fighter to become a champion.
I'm glad you brought that up, because it's another question I wanted to ask you is do you have any other aspirations of doing things outside of fighting once you've retired? because one of the things you were talking to Jamie about before the show started was producing. you were talking about production like film and filming things, and do you have other aspirations?
I have a lot of aspirations, but not like a job. I have a lot of passion. I'm passionate about a lot of things today I use, I can, I have quite a resource to have some hobbies, stuff that I am excited about. I'm passionate about. I create a small production in Cameroon, in my village, just to train kids so they can have to touch camera like this, all those stuff that we have here.
I have it back home. they touch, they learn on it. I just want them to be able to operate a good camera. if someday they want to do or somebody want to do a movie, they have somebody that can operate a nice camera just home. don't need to go to Europe or in America to bring people because local they can do and they have been trained on good cameras.
so I have started stuff like that a lot.
what inspired you to do that in terms of cameras and production and stuff?
I always love cameras, I always love, I see and I always impress, and then I see the challenge, the difference that are. you know, like you see somebody that make a film, a movie that might be on Netflix, with a very low quality of camera, then I'm like what if this guy has access on a good camera? what can he do, right, you know?
well, that's one of the things you, like you, were talking about with fighters that there's a lot of people out there that are very talented, that just haven't had their shot yet there's a lot of people like that with film making and with stand up comedy and writing literature everything.
and I always say this I think we might have become the.
first African champion just because there wasn't so many people that have a chance. I mean like when you look at Cameroo Adesanya.
I.
I'm sure if you go to Africa, you can find some motherfuckers who can beat us up.
but lucky us, we didn't have that chance yet, so
we took the.
opportunity right.
but you open the door, though, and it makes it possible for others, which is, yeah, that's one of the more important things about accomplishment, but with.
time goes by, the challenge will become tougher and tougher and we will come around and we might come very short.
well, look at Brazil. you know I mean, look at Brazil. there's so many champions, so many elite fighters come out of Brazil. now. it's because Royce Gracie opened that door and the UFC just became a place for them.
and if you take even that Roy Gracie on his prime, put him here, he's gonna get beat up by, maybe by some kickboxers. yeah, you know, but he's, he was the one that opened that door, you know, that gave that opportunity that made the path through that.
yeah, it's just. it's so important that you recognize that that, like your position is not just as an individual, but your position is as an inspiration to others. and to give people this, this they see it like I can do it. he did it. it's possible.
yeah, I think in life we we take every opportunity that we have. we get to the point again that we have a opportunity to affect other life. how many people affect other life? how many people in their lifetime walk around and parents walk to their mom like, oh, my kid want to become. be like you, right, you know?
I think I think it's something really cool. it's really great.
it's very
cool, like a parent that want the best for their kids. yes, kids wanted to be like you. yes, it's different, because he's not very smart, he's not wise, and even kids want to be. do some dumb shit. so you might be a bad guy and kids still want to be like you, but a parent that really protective about their kids, like want the best for their kids, and then they'll come like oh, your son, such an inspiration.
my kid want to be like you. so that's that basically like him, approving that he he kid, should be like you. he hope for his kid to become like you. that's a big statement, which is.
pretty cool. yeah, it is pretty cool. it's really cool. it's really cool, and it's there's such a unique time for people too, because internet is available pretty much all over the world now. so kids in all these countries, especially if they have phones, they have access to all of this information, all.
and it's messy. it's coming from all over and they can find everything.
yeah,
everything now how to help them pick what's good and what's not good? right, that's the problem. yeah, because information is good, but
a lot of it's bullshit.
a lot of it is bullshit. you have to filter because some, some of them are just bad seed.
yeah, that's true too, yeah. and then, have you seen what's happening in amazon? there's this very small, uncontacted tribe and they got internet access and now a lot of them are just on their phones all day. and then the tribe leaders are like what the fuck, everyone's lazy. you guys are becoming like americans now.
you're just on your phone all day. they're looking at tits and looking at porn and like you know.
of course.
and this thing that they thought would be a beautiful thing. oh, this would be so great. we're gonna get access to information, people gonna get educated instead. you know, a lot of them are just looking at tik-tok videos.
yeah, but
they gotta have to figure out how to
manage that people, for the most part, are lazy really.
you think so?
yeah,
i think people, for the most part, are lazy if you give them an opportunity to be lazy.
uh no.
it's hard to be disciplined, especially if you don't have examples of other disciplined people around you.
you know, some people might have, might just have been educated, keep going to school because they choose school over work. that's true, and some people choose work over school.
that's true as well? yeah,
and then you go to school and after being graduated, or or have your phd, and then you're like oh, he's educated, he's this in fact, you were running away from a job.
i'm sure that's.
educators.
that's the.
problem with our universities, those people, why not teach?
at the end of the day yes, you're educated, but in reality you are lazy. if you have a job, if you have a job that is going to wear a suit and act like a boss every day, he can't do it, but if he has to like, start something and work really hard, he can't stand it.
right.
yeah, he can't stand it.
there's a lot of truth in that.
but someone will also be a worker because they had a vision they want to do, that they're excited of a knowledge to, uh, implement into something and then after that they just start a business. and this you know, because starting a business never is never easy, right? you have to be a worker when you have a business. when you start a business, it's not like a nine to five job. you know, you don't have time.
sometime you have to wake up at midnight or at 2 a.
m. to pick up a call, because this guy is, I don't know, in China, in Europe and the time different, and you have to keep going. you have to be on his time. you have to be on meeting in the meeting at this time. so that's where you know if you are a worker or not.
right? if you see that the office nine to seven, yeah, wear your suit. I'm a manager of these. I'm that, I'm that.
you might be lazy, yeah and lazy.
people do a good job too, because lazy people find a strategy of avoiding work, that's true, which is very intelligent. yes, yeah, they find.
ways, yes.
to get things done without really putting in the.
work. that is true. yeah, there's so many books like that, the four-hour work week, you know. yeah, there's a lot of books on people just trying to avoid work.
yeah, but they still have to move to wash their dishes. yeah, clothes like dishwasher, for example. I think it is the idea of some lazy person that didn't want to wash tissues.
are you agree with?
me, so a lazy person didn't want to wash dishes, so they hired a dishwasher no.
they invent. oh,
they invent a dishwasher. oh a machine, yeah, yeah.
they thought about it like yeah, how can I get my dishes clean without have to wash it?
also also it's more efficient because you can put them in the.
dishwasher. it's efficient, but the idea come from.
laziness I mean he.
might be I'm not saying he's the thing, but he might be coming from laziness. you have a point? otherwise? I don't want to wash my clothes anymore. how can I?
but I still need to wear a clean clothes. right? how can I do to get my clothes clean without washing them? well?
that's true right.
because you only wear like one piece of clothes a day and you only eat. use one plate when you eat. how hard is it to wash that one plate? yeah, it takes 30 seconds. you get some soap, you get a sponge, rinse it off, put it in the dryer.
you're done like I.
have a that's a good.
point man. yeah, I never thought of it.
that way I get in my house, and it's something that I still don't understand. sometimes I'll leave plates around and then, if I have my housekeeping coming, they'll always take plate, take them and put in the dishwasher and everything in the dishwasher, and I don't know what happened. if it's the dishwasher, something wrong with it, you never get thing clean properly.
well, you kind of have to clean them before you put in the dishwasher, which is crazy. so if you just clean them a little bit more, you wouldn't have to put them in the dishwasher. you probably save time, okay.
personally, I never use a dishwasher, I don't know why and I don't know how it works. the easier thing for me is, after using one or two plates, I wash it, put it there. yeah, it's easier. or even if I stack like three, four plates after I come, take five minutes clean it, put it there. yeah, it's easier for me than running machine and this, which I don't even know how it works too much, and it's gonna be sometime.
he might be loud. I would just want to watch my TV and that.
shit is true? yeah, that's true, that's a good point. yeah, that is a lazy person's invention, a smart, lazy person, yeah.
yeah, people are very creative. very, I never.
thought about it that way, but I think you're right, yeah, but then there's some things like vacuum cleaner. you need that. how the fuck you're gonna get anything out of a carpet without a vacuum?
cleaner. you need that.
yeah, there's some inventions that clean. that makes sense, but I.
think I mean everything makes sense. yeah, even like a wash machine makes sense. yeah, you know, after training you come, you put your clothes there. you train to twice a day. you put your clothes.
after two days, you press that button on the machine. when you, when you're leaving yeah out, yeah, come back, it's done, you put in the dryer.
again yeah, no, that's a very good point, though, about inventions and also about how lazy people avoid work, and about a lot of educated people are just avoiding work. yeah, by continuing their education. I know personally people that have done that. they get their PhD, they get grants, they get loans I.
know, you go, you go in like a family house and then there are like maybe four kids. there's there's dishes, they have to clean the house and then someone have a homework, and even if he does have a homework, he's reading a book. he's in the middle of the book. so that means he's not cleaning anything because he's reading. you guys are not reading.
you have to clean. so how easy is that?
well, people love to put off things they're supposed to do. you know, it's a. it's an interesting thing, too, about fighters, because the difference between there's like a lot of factors involved in being a fighter. there's the mentality, there's the ability to focus and to perform under pressure. it's very difficult to do, but there's also the ability to prepare properly, so like to have the discipline to do everything that you're supposed to do.
and it's even more, just more difficult sometimes for talented people, yeah, I.
think. I think fighter fighting is more about discipline, because not always talented people will make it. no, I have talent as much as you want. if you don't work, if you don't put some work in and then get discipline, you will not get there you don't like. if, if you look like the champions of every weight class, every promotion, most likely they are not the most talented guy, but they are.
they are. they are very hard worker, yes, and they have like something very special that did that distinguish.
them. do you know the expression hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard? yeah, yeah, that's it, that's true? yeah, it is.
absolutely you, because
talent. one of the things that's unfortunate about talent is that when you're talented, you're better than everybody else in the gym, and so you can kind of get away without. training is hard. maybe a physical gifts, maybe you just have an understanding and then you.
take it for granted because you didn't have to work to get it. yeah, you don't even have the feeling that you need to work to, to work more to improve it, because he was just there, right? so you don't even understand that they work for it, right? just you just happened to have it. yep, and then they say you have to work for it.
come on, bro, for what right? I didn't do anything right to get it.
and if you can get away with it for a while, you develop habits of not training a hundred percent, not really putting a hundred percent into it, but still being successful because you're talented. yeah, but then you run into someone who's talented and has discipline, and that's where you get.
fucked okay, and then that's the problem, right when you.
get talent and discipline, you get a Michael Jordan and then you get Mike Tyson. talent and discipline, you get Mike.
Tyson. yeah, and then you get to. you also get like some people that are not talented, but they are just the best worker in the room. mm-hmm, your talent will have it at some point. talent will have a limit.
yes, yeah, it has a limit.
especially if someone is willing to really outwork you. really outwork everyone, yeah.
he has to, because, like when you don't have talent, you basically start from nothing. then you have one, then you have two, then you know that you have those two because you've been working. so you have to keep working not only to maintain, to keep the two, but to get the three and the four. yes, and then you get into that process and then you get to work. yeah, when you get talent, you wake up someday.
you have five out of ten without working. yes, you don't understand that. you need to work to get the six and seven right. the guy that only has like the two, he already understood that. he already knew that he needs to.
he needs to work to get those two. to get the three. yeah, so at some point he's gonna catch you at five, and if you're not improving, he's gonna keep going up, he's gonna get to six.
and seven, and he'll be like this. motherfucker was below me.
at five or barely go at six.
seven. yeah, and then there's guys that are really good in the gym and then, when they get to the bright lights, they can't perform. yeah, which is the craziest thing, there's these superstars in a gym, and I remember from my kickboxing days, there was guys that were just so good in the gym and then they would get into that ring and they were just. you could see it. they just diminished, like they were 50% of themselves when they.
competed. that I don't know.
maybe so there's something about anxiety, their inability to manage stress. maybe I don't know. I mean I don't know what it is. I always feel like some people can overcome it and they don't, and some people do. some people they start off as great gym guys and then they perform badly, but then eventually they figure it out yeah, they just keep keep growing and learning.
but there were also a lot of people that go to the gym to become a world champion. at the gym, you know, I have seen a lot of. there's a lot of people that you get even in the gym. they are coming to try to figure out that guy. he's good.
so I might have to check him out. you know, right, they have that mentality, right. so in the gym, while you, maybe as a professional fighter, you're there to train, have a good training to learn. yes, because you know that you only have one place that you want to show up, it's in the fight, right. the two other months you're in the gym and sometimes, if you have somebody in front of you that you feel like he's not catching up with your level, you give him an advantage.
I'm like okay, let me start on the back right. let's start on this position right. give him an advantage so he can challenge you more. yes, you know what you are doing. you know why you are.
doing that. that takes a healthy control of your ego. you take it.
you see a guy that is a good wrestler, a good jiu-jitsu, but has very bad striking. you know that you always start on a stand up. you always start up and then he he might not be able to take you down. I'm like, okay, let's go, let's start on the ground, step on me half guard. you know full guard stuff like that, because you know that you want to work that position right.
you're taking advantage on him, but some people are there like to prove that, oh.
I'm something, they're competing.
instead of training. yeah, they're competing, yeah, and they don't usually gain more on that, and those people will get in the fight, and it's different, yeah.
it's different. it's that is a very interesting thing, right? it's like some people understand it objectively, like I'm here to learn and grow, and I need to work on my weaknesses to make them my strengths, and some people want to avoid their weaknesses. so they only work on their strength. so they look good in the gym, yeah.
yeah, because I care about how.
they look yeah, I used to see that a lot with kickboxers that didn't want to do jiu-jitsu because they didn't like to get tapped, because on the feet they were a killer and then they go to the ground like they're like a beginner. they don't like that, they only getting dominated on the ground. so they would just like skip jiu-jitsu classes, skip wrestling training. they don't want to have anything to do with that, I think, was.
also about like a generation that people around the gym wasn't, wasn't understanding. also, like, there's a gym there, there are people that if you're training with them and something happened and you tap there will be like oh, we're pussy right, you know. and I think those kind of people they don't have their teammate to improve. you know, no, well, instead of like, oh no, you shouldn't do this or you should do this instead to avoid. to avoid that, I'm like oh no, bro, you don't tap like, yeah, you don't tap.
then what you go to sleep, or you break your arm or you break your.
arm. yeah, you don't tap in the training, you're a moron. yeah, it's a stupid thing to not tap in the gym, and I've been stupid before. it's like a thing that people do where they think that they're. yeah, all you're doing is getting injured, and it's if you don't tap to an arm bar, you're gonna fuck your elbow up and then you might not be able to train.
right for months. yes, yeah, you have what.
yeah, you know, the Gracie's have a great perspective on that. they always say keep it playful. they always say that when you're in the gym you're just training and learning and you got to keep it playful. Marcelo Garcia says that all the time. who's one of the greatest jiu-jitsu guys of all time?
he says you have to open up your game in the gym. you can't be closed off me too defensive. you have to open up your gym, your game, and learn that. what happens if you get stuck in bad positions? yeah, learn, when you get caught, you get caught, you tap and even.
if you don't get top caught sometime, get your position in some, get yourself in a position to get caught. yeah, let somebody cut you and trying to defend yeah, understand like how to get out of there. yes, you do that. that's why they.
call practice. do you think you'll ever compete in jiu-jitsu? you ever think that's something that's interesting to?
you me? yeah, no, I don't think so. I don't have any knees or ankles to give up.
that's a good point, man. I watched a getting his leg broken if I was 25 years. I'm gonna send you this, Jamie, because this is horrific.
this is if I was 25, 20, 25, I would take those chances. do all those stuff fun? yeah, why I don't have anything to give up.
yeah, that's um. I'm gonna show you something, Jamie. this this video scared the fucking shit out of me. this video is this guy gets caught in this heel hook.
hold on. sorry, where is it? yeah, I'm gonna.
send it to you, Jamie. yeah, I'm sending it to you, Jamie. this shit's horrible. this guy gets caught in an inside heel hook like 10 seconds of the match and he doesn't tap and his leg snaps in half. yeah, back step, watch this.
that's stupid. check this out. so this guy they scramble by Austin.
oh, my goodness, that sound play that.
again, so I could hear that sound, a very
long time. that's in South Africa. that's South Africa.
punch me in the face, bro, yeah, that leg.
might not ever be the same again, no.
punch me in the face? no, not the leg. yourself, like. do you imagine, like just thinking of the day, that your leg make this sound like oh god damn, that's right.
here right? yeah, right there. yes, like the spiral, yeah, spiral fracture, was the shin horrible? yeah, and the sound was like a baseball bat breaking. oh, I'll never forget the sound when Chris Weidman kicked Uriah Hall and snapped his knee and snapped his shin in half.
the sound was so horrible that crying he's never been the same again. you know, it's like that. those breaks like especially the shin break, you know, I wonder like if Conor McGregor is ever going to come back again. yeah, it's like it's very difficult to come back from that break. that that was, that's one of the worst.
injuries and I think, like, for that kind of injury, the most, the most difficult part is the mental part. you don't know if it's gonna be taken right to try to get to like. you know, like. actually, obviously, you have a rehab, right, right, you rehab the part that is injured right, the rehab of your mind, to be able to trust that again. right, the problem, you know, I'm like.
I don't know about that. maybe we just keep skip this part. well.
even put when you're not injured, like your fight with steep a, and then you fight Derek Lewis in the back of your mind, you're still thinking about the.
steep a fight right. I'm still fighting stupid. I'm still like what damn, why did I did this? no, you, I should have be patient, I should these. you know, I'm there fighting stupid, and then I get surprised when the fight was over and I'm like.
I'm like. okay, this is it? we still have one more round right and now it's over, because I was just being.
patient. yeah, well, you came back from that, though. how did you come back from that? how did you get your mind straight?
I mean I think I get to the point that I just let it go and I'm like okay, because I'm like, if this the end, at least let's finish how we started mmm. at the beginning he was all phone, right, right phone. feel like at some point along the way I lost that phone. I don't know when, but I lost that phone and it's about like oh, we need you have to, we shouldn't lose these blah, blah, blah, blah. so did.
you make a decision in your mind to go back to having fun again. yeah, he was.
just like have fun, and then whatever happened happened, don't, don't care. and if this is it, if you lose again and then maybe have to be how to get caught or whatever, at least enjoy. so then I get in China, have to fight Curtis blade, 45 second, it was over. yeah, no bad, having fun, but for you, yes, the performance of the night, then keep going. so so did you.
ever work with a psychologist or a performance coach, or dissolve just you.
figure it out yourself. I try, but I think I have it like a personal location. I don't believe in that really. yeah, I don't know. I talked to myself a lot.
I spent time with me, with myself. I mean, as most of the time I'm by myself, I'm a lonely person. so I spent that with myself and I talked to myself a lot. I figured out, analyze, and this was just me, like growing up. you know, didn't even have like, didn't have friend, didn't have like.
gay people to hang out with wasn't a welcome among kids. so I created my own war in my mind that my own friends and everything in my mind so just used to hang out with myself. so I get used to and just like.
that. well, that's so much better for a person in your position in life than to have an entourage. so I know a lot of guys when they get very successful, they have an entourage. so they're surrounded by yes men all the time, and that is one of the worst things that happens to a.
successful person, but for them, for some people, is cool. you know, like even now, I think no. later than last week I was in the restaurant and I walk there by myself, take a table, sit down the people.
look over there is that fucking Francis.
and God, yeah, order my food, eat the.
people freak out like. was that, Francis?
you. I'm like yeah, you expecting somebody, and most of the time the answer is yes, basically like leave me alone, right so?
you generally like being by yourself.
yeah, I like to. I do that a lot, and people like are you leave here by yourself? are you by yourself? I'm like. what's the problem by being by yourself?
it's been independent. yeah, free. I don't need anybody to be to decide on my happiness or me having fun or whatever. you know like sometime I will spend two days in my house without going out. yeah, I'm good with it and I can go out.
I can do whatever I want, but I just want to be.
there. I did that recently. you know, my family was out of town and I was home by myself for three days. it was glorious, I loved it. yeah, just gives you time to.
think about things. I do that a lot, but recently I've been changing a little bit because, like staying home, a lot will make me think and will make me sad, since I lost my kid, my boy, then he'll make me think and make me sad, and if I stay there, I will keep, I'll keep having those thought. the sadness around. it's like the energy around me is just sad. I understand, you know so.
then what I do is like when I start to feel something like that, I just have to force myself like get out, grab the car key, get the hell out of here, like I'm running away from something. then by the time you even find a car key, you find your shoes, you do this, your mind is already thinking of something. but if you just have sorrow, just sorrow. yeah, if you just sit in your couch, then it keep going, keep going, then it's sad, then you face, then you're like hit life everything.
your son was 15 months old. 15 months old.
what happened, bro? I think he has a some malformation on his brain, which is something that we didn't know he. he passed out twice. the first time was in Cameroon. we took him to the hospital.
they didn't find anything. the second time was in Saudi. we took him to the hospital. they did they run a lot of exam. they didn't do anything.
they did the EEG, didn't do the scan, the scan or the MRI, because I think, according to them, their conclusion was that he has a swollen lung, you know, and that was what was pressing his chest and stopping him from breathing and create that thing. so after all those exam, they give him some medicine. that is going to be okay, nothing to worry about, because at first they haven't thought about like asthma, they give like a ventilator and then that afterward, after some result, it took him up out and then, you know, he put me in confident, even though, like I don't know, sometime I think somewhere in my mind, I have to think that, yes, but he, he didn't show any stress respiratory if he was something from his lung. but I'm like bro, you those was professional doctor and these, and then I trust that, yeah. so I basically like, put my guard down and I remember being just getting in Dubai and that day I was thinking like our life is.
meanwhile, I'm not doing bad, life is good. you know, I went to the gym like maybe I should go to club tonight and I don't go to club, I don't go out like man. come on, which kind of guy you? I went to the gym? what to work out?
I'm in the bike cycling. then I trying to call. I wanted to talk to him when I was going on the phone on the bike. then I call his mom. his mom didn't pick up the phone and I'm like, after I'm done, I gonna go, take my shower, lean the bed and call her and 30 minute after I was on the leg machine, my phone ring.
it was my little brother say pro, things are not going way. I'm like what he said Kobe, pass out is not breathing, is we are the hospital? they kicked me out from the room. I'm like what happened and then, as we are talking, he's also trying to get information. so I lose him for like three, four minutes.
then after I call again, again and then I'm talking to him while he's talking to the nurse, and the nurse was like who are you? are you his dad? he said no. then why are you? I miss uncle.
where is that? is that it's not here where he's gone? just like that, he's gone. what do you mean he's gone? how come he's gone?
this kid was 15 months. he was bigger than 15. money was green. he was the most joyful, happy kids around. hey, what do you mean he's gone, gone where.
well, that was it. I thought I was dreaming. I thought they're gonna say some. no, that's not true. then I keep calling again and everybody is confirmed.
I call my mom. my mom is just on tear, bro, what the fuck is this. and that was it. and I never realized. I have been in the situation that I have seen people losing their kids morning, maybe definitely older kids, but I'm like man.
this month must be hot, even though I can feel it at that moment. I mean I don't. you don't know like what could be your reaction. you don't know. I have been in the situation that I'm like bro.
I don't cry, I never cry. oh, I mean not like. I never cry, but I don't. I don't just, don't just happen. I don't know why.
no, maybe because you don't have your reason when you feel like something really hurt inside you, like you can breathe. it's hurting. that was it and when.
did this happen April 27th. so this before the Joshua fight, no, after after the.
Joshua fight. yeah, April 27th, almost two months after, that was it. and then all of the sudden you realize how a kid that wasn't there two years ago have became a major part of your life. or, if it's not like your life, then you realize that all the thing that you were worrying about didn't mean shit at all. nothing mean like nothing.
it was the only thing at time that really matter. yeah, but it's not anymore. but you know. one thing is that you know my dad passed away. I was 15 and he was he gets sick, just stay at home for like months and couldn't even go to the hospital and get to the point that he couldn't even go to the bathroom on his own.
nothing. but I was 15, I was stuck at school. you know, I always tell myself like I was a kid, what could I have done? and then, after a couple years, I left school and then I started think I'm like okay, I had an excuse when my dad passed away. I think I'm becoming an adult and I feel powerless.
I still can't do anything if something like that happened. what happened if my mom gets sick like what happened if I have my own kids like some days and they need me or I would provide for them, like or protect them, and those was one of the thought that I always have like, pushing me, leaving like no, I need to do something, I need to take action. then, after years, you get to the point that you feel like you have get. have it figured out like okay, I can afford a health care for my family, I can take care. if somebody needs to go to the hospital, or whatever it is, I can make it, I can do it.
you know. then, all of the sudden, your own kids, which is the one that rely on you, only you. you couldn't even do anything for him. he did like. by the time he get to the hospital, he was gone.
you couldn't fight for him. I'm like bro, let me fight. let me say I have tried. let me say I did something. let's make all this.
what was the point if, after all this, I get to the point that I'm still this powerless in front of a real situation and that that was, that's hurt. yeah, I'm sorry to hear that.
man I can't imagine. I can't imagine, and it's also the pain of knowing there's nothing you could have done. yeah, it's just a medical thing that he was born.
with. yeah, he was born with. because, because when he happens, everybody was confused, nobody knows. so get home, then what should we do? let's do it.
I've seen.
without, without one was tough. because you think that they say you know what, that they're gonna tell him. cut him, cut his head, like I mean a kid that yesterday you were going excited to talk to him. now they are talking about like cut him this way, this way, like how come down. it's like, oh, but you know, it's at least good to know what happened.
maybe that might save somebody in the future because he's still in mystery there. so say, let's do the autopsy. that's why they find all this out.
the last time I saw him was me leaving Cameroon, going to the elevator, and he was at my. he was with my little brother and he didn't want me to go because he became my body so much that he didn't, when I'm around, you don't want me to to leave him alone. he comes. I can take him whenever, wherever I go. him a minor don't eat, it doesn't care.
as long as he's with me, like that was it. he was my my mate, like 15 months. he's barely walking, but you know when I walked in, you know that I walked in. you don't have. they don't have to act like who walked in.
they know. that is. is that you know he reaction? or then you start to think about all those little thing, all those little things that you guys have. just you want him, then it's.
then he's over. when he was the day that I was living, he was crying, like wanted me to go with him, but I keep going. I knew that. oh, I'm going to be back. I have no clue that that was it.
I would say I should have go back one more time and one more day. I know how came one more time, yeah, yeah.
and then get back in the apartment and see all his toys, the stuff that he was playing, the thing that you take you take from him the other day and put here is right there, but he's not there anymore. we'll never be there.
Kobe. Kobe was his name. I named him after Kobe brand because I had a great memory of Kobe brand. then did at the USA was launching, was announcing the partnership with body are more was in New York. I just arrived in the US at time.
my English was so bad. I'm in New York. we have to make to meet in this room, this event to make the announcement, and I'm there little early then. Kobe came little early to meet me in the waiting room. just could be a night there for like 30.
I don't, my English is very bad, I'm embarrassed. I don't want to speak and talking, asking question, talk about my story, ask me where I came from and how do I get I know like wow, it is impressive like this. is Kobe right? I don't want to bother him, but this question me really excited about it. get me to talk, then I feel bad.
I'm like, oh no, your English is really good. I understand what you're saying. and then how about these that like for 30 minutes until then they know why was the next guy that walked in the room and he said, wow, do you know this guy story? do you know his story? he did this.
he did that in the way. so yes, I know, like, wow, this crazy. wow, it's crazy how we in America, we don't know what's going on around the world, and Kobe was there talking like that. I'm like this is Kobe brand, you know. so that was like my moment with Kobe.
Wow. so when he passed out, when he died, I, uh, you know, I was in LA when I heard about the news and he hit me really bad and I decide, I'm gonna make Kobe and have a Kobe.
so that's it. then the day that he passed the way, just the day before they were just making his little basketball court that I have for him, his playground for him, you know, because I was so he wait for him to start to be strong on his feet so we can go work. we can do this. we can play soccer. I've been looking for soccer, click, click for him.
these that you know you have all the project I have thought of. like which school should he go like? think oh, what should I do? you know, you never know. maybe something happened to me.
I should set up something to keep him safe. you know you think like that, but no, it never crossed your mind that he will be the one living first from the moment that he was born, not like when he was born, when he started. react and you really see like a living person. you really start a plan out like how to.
protect him, how to build a security around him. you know he, he wasn't just a kid, he was a project. he became a huge project. everything that you think of that's good that you want, oh it's for Kobe, it's for him. all of the sudden, then he's gone.
yeah,
you've been through a lot in your life, Francis. yeah, you've been through a lot.
a lot of people been through it. you didn't just know yeah, then after that you look people that been through that loves a kid. you respect them more, you give them some more respect. like my older brother lost two kids and I feel so bad not really being there for him because I didn't understand. I know that he lost kids, but I didn't know what exactly that means.
right now that I understand I'm like man. I should have be there more. you know, I feel bad that I didn't connect to his, to his suffering, to his pain, and you respect him more from being through that, to overcome that twice. then you think like it. is that a thing like no, in fact I think he's.
I'm not the toughest one, though I'm being put in in test and realize that I'm not as tough as I think.
there's nothing. anybody could say that's the craziest thing. there's no comfort.
that anybody can give you. yeah, I mean if they ask you what do you want or how?
what can comfort you? you don't know nothing. it's nothing. there's nothing gonna happen. it's really about like facing it daily.
you know, take it one at.
the time. do you have other children? yeah,
I have another girl, I have another girl, but when he happened like that, you feel like I don't know. even though you're in your mind, you think like you still have a lot going on, a lot of thing to be grateful about, but in your heart you feel like you're broke. you have nothing. nothing is what I mean. I always love life.
I know that I have know that I have everything of society. but at least for once I'm like, at least whenever I die I'm gonna go see my kid, I'm gonna see him. I'm not afraid of it, I still want to live. but at least whenever you know you get to, you get to that point to think like that. so some way you're looking.
I'm very sorry for your loss. man really am. I wish I could say something, but there's nothing to say. nothing to say. thank you, thank you, and thank you for being here, man, thank you for everything you're.
you're an inspirational man, you.
really are. thank you, appreciate you.
appreciate you being here and the best of luck to you and everything in life.
we'll see. that's why I, like, I really want to come back and do something you know, like. because I really think like maybe I should. I get to the point that I'm like. why do I fight for?
you know, I don't have to, don't want, but bro, that boy for 15, for at least 15 months, I think he, he took me something you know, like he was active, full of life, and I think if there's one thing that he he would have been doing, he would have been doing he, he would have been doing something, not staying there, not being a reason of giving up or whatever, and I think that.
that's the only way to honor him his memory. keeping my life get a purpose.
make him a motivation. I think so. we will see how it plays out. yeah again, thank.
you, Francis. thank you for being here. man, I really appreciate you all right.
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