794: So Close and Yet So Far

So, Valerie, you're a producer here on our show.

I am.

Your tone of voice portrays a lack of enthusiasm for the story you're about to tell me.

Yes.

Valerie Kipnis is one of our younger and newer producers here, and it was other staff members who urged her to come into the studio with me and tell me this story last year when we first ran today's show, because they thought it was funny, even if Valerie didn't.

Okay. It takes place on a subway.

Okay.

Okay. So I get on the subway, and I see this person I know on the same subway train.

Well, that's a coincidence. It doesn't happen very often.

No. I've never seen this person on a stop before. No. And I'm like, I should say something to this person. And I'm like, thinking in my head, I'm like, or I should say something, I should say something, and then he looks at me and he makes like direct eye contact, and I'm like, all right, this is my chance.

How far are you from him?

Six feet.

Six feet. So close, right? But so far. She's by the subway doors. He's at the pole in the middle of the aisle.

So then, anyways, in my head, I'm like, okay, he'll probably get off on the next stop. It's not a big deal. He hasn't seen me. I'll just like pretend I don't see him. But then, a few stops later, he has not gotten off, and he comes to stand right next to me, like shoulder to shoulder, and I'm like, oh my God, like, he's definitely noticed me.

Because you don't want to interrupt him?

Yeah, because I'm like, if he wanted to talk to me, he would say something.

She keeps thinking he'll get off any minute. After all, he went to stand by the door right by her. But he doesn't get off. Not at the next station, or the next, or the next. And at some point she realizes.

This is going to be a long ride. Like this isn't one or two stops. This is like a 35-minute subway ride, where this person that I know very well is sitting next to me, and I'm not saying anything. And our shoulders are like next to one another's. And the subway is like dalting, and I feel his shoulder on my shoulder, and I'm like, he's going to notice.

Wait, wait, let me just pause on that. Because now the fact that you haven't said something makes it more awkward if suddenly you go like, oh, it's you.

Exactly. But then it's in my head, I'm like, it's even more awkward if he turns to me and is like, has she been here the whole time and hasn't said anything? So in my head, I think this is a good idea. And like, I take out a magazine, and I flip it open, like as if I'm reading it, but I go like this.

So you're holding the magazine up to your face.

Uh-huh. So he won't see me?

Just so it's clear what we're describing here. Valerie is holding the magazine to her face, so the top of the magazine is near her hairline. So she's like a nearly blind monk trying to squint at words in a Bible. Or like an extra in an old musical where, I don't know, Skye Masterson or Annie Name or whoever is going to walk into a subway car, and everybody in the car has a magazine held up to his or her face so that they can pull them down on cue and start singing. The magazine is too close to her eyes to actually read it.

Like, no normal human reads magazines in this way. And the whole time I'm thinking he's going to notice that I didn't say anything. And why didn't I say? And I keep thinking, should I have just said something? I don't know.

Do you think it's possible that he's having the same experience you're having?

Absolutely not.

Why?

I just know it.

How?

Because this is, I don't think people feel, I don't know, I don't think people feel this way. Do people feel this way?

You're a person and you feel this way.

But no, I don't think he notices me. Or if he does, that this makes us so much worse.

Is this somebody who you're scared of?

No.

It sounds like you're scared of them.

No, I'm not scared of them. But scared in a normal, scared kind of way.

What do you mean by that?

Well, this guy's my boss.

Was it me?

Yes.

Are you serious?

Yes, a hundred percent.

I absolutely did not see you.

See, I knew it. But I, like, I was sweating underneath my winter jacket. It was like one of the worst 40 minutes of my life.

Yeah, I didn't see you. If I had seen you, I would have said hello.

But, okay, can I tell you another detail? that's important?

Yeah.

You, this is so weird. You weren't wearing a suit. And in my head, I'd never seen you without a suit. So I thought, maybe he doesn't want to be perceived. Like, I was just like, maybe this is Ira's private time.

So it was like seeing a teacher outside of the classroom. when you're in elementary school. It just seemed wrong that you were seeing me there without my uniform on.

Yes, you were wearing sneakers. I'd never seen you wear sneakers. And I was like, I can't, I can't say anything now.

What was I doing?

Frantically scrolling on your phone.

When you say frantically scrolling through my phone, I was frantic for like a 30-minute subway ride.

I think you were actually like reading something. It was like not frantic in any way, but in my head, I was like, he's frantically trying to avoid me. So he's scrolling.

Did you think I would get mad at you?

No, but I thought you'd be like annoyed. You'd be like, hey, I didn't say anything for a reason, Val.

Can I ask you a personal question?

Yeah, I'm like a Soviet immigrant, duh.

It's kind of hard to get my head around it. That she and I stood next to each other on a train for half an hour, and our shoulders were knocking against each other, and I didn't notice her, and she said nothing. And held a magazine to her face like a force field, protecting herself and keeping us separate.

Wait, Eric, can I ask this last question? Why didn't you see me?

Oh, I can totally tell you why I didn't see you.

Okay.

I just really can shut out the world really, really well. And just decide to focus on something. And then in a work context, it's really handy. I can kind of write anywhere. But in personal situations all the time, I can be in the same room as somebody and be thinking about something or focused on something.

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, I feel the exact opposite in a bad way.

You're just always aware of others around you.

Hyper aware to the point where I make up things. maybe. Or I misperceive.

Yeah.

That seems hard.

Yeah.

What a day. on our show. We have other stories of people who are so close, but so far. Fact one is about two people in one of the closest relationships possible. They're engaged to be married.

When I left Sierra Leone at eight years old, I left behind a small group of friends I did everything with. As kids, we would run around the city and play soccer at the beach. That's how we bonded. Now that we're grown, when I go back, we go to the gym. It's how we pick up what we left off.

One, two, three, and four. Five, more, six, more, seven.

Sonics sits at the end of a dirt road in Freetown, a small space in a quaint green and yellow building. It has no air conditioning and relentless heat, so the guys are usually drenched in sweat like oiled up extras in 90s R&B videos. I come here almost every time I'm in Salon. But then, the last time we went, I discovered that for many of the guys here, all their crunches and squats had a much deeper purpose than looking good. The gym, my friends told me, possesses a special luck for young Sierra Leonean men who want to move to America or Europe.

Oh, yes, oh yes. We have a barrage of them, a barrage of them.

Another member of Sonics, this guy with perfectly sculpted arms called Sultan, jumped in to name their legends, the guys they've heard found wives overseas, success stories that get passed around at the gym.

How do I breathe?

Mark and I grew up in the same neighborhood, but we didn't really get to know each other until we were grown. He's a good-looking guy who's easy to talk to, not the greatest singer, but we were hanging out one day, and he decided to sing me his favorite love song.

Feel so different being here. I was so used to being next to you. Life for me is not the same. There is no one to talk to.

Mario's, How Do I Breathe, one of my favorite songs, is a song about a guy trying to piece together his emotional life after losing the woman he loves. It's basically Mark's story. It's why he's the one of my friends who believes most fervently that finding love overseas is the way to go. The girl he's singing about is someone he grew up with. Mark says she was the smartest kid in their 5th grade class, but she was always approachable, and he liked that.

Happy birthday to you. It really surprised me. He hugged me. I was really, really happy. I just started crying.

She planned this elaborate surprise party for his 14th birthday, complete with all his favorite food and all the people he loved. And on top of all that, she gave him a kiss. Was it on your cheek or your mouth or your lips?

On my lips. In front of everybody. In front of my mom, in front of my mom who adopted me, in front of my grandpa, my granny.

So that was the most special kiss you've ever had. That was like the best kiss you've ever had.

Ever.

Neither of them came from money. Far from it. But Mark was growing up with a single parent. When his mother couldn't afford to care for him, he lived with his grandpa. But then his grandpa died.

One time, when I was sitting down, she told me that I have this guy.

The guy was a Seoul Youngin doctor. He had seen one picture of Mark's girlfriend and decided that she would be his wife. Mark says she tried to ignore him, but the man contacted her family and formally asked for her hand. She told Mark they were pressuring her to accept, telling her that a marriage with this man could not only change her future, but her entire family's too.

A doctor who don't know where you are from, who doesn't know.

Love became disappointment.

Yes, it changes everything, because if you meet somebody who's not a doctor. The woman who hurts me the most in my life.

The visionary feminist writer Belle Hooks says love is made up of 7 factors. Wherever someone is practicing care, affection, recognition, respect, commitment, trust, and open, honest communication, there is love. Even in an economically poor environment like Ceylon. But talking to Mark, I found myself thinking more about what love needs to survive. What conditions can make the act of loving easier or more difficult to sustain?

I don't think true love is not here. If it is, it's like 10% or 5%.

If it is, only 10% or 5%, have true love. It wasn't just Mark. Almost every guy I talked to in Freetown told me the same thing. It felt like there was this lovelessness among the men in Ceylon. Every time I raised a question and I talked to around 18 or 19 people, they'd launch into their own stories of heartbreak.

5%.

Yeah, sure. When I ask my friends in America the same question about finding love without money, they say 60% to 80%.

Really long.

Mark got on Facebook and he started sliding into as many DMs as possible. He didn't care about age or race or religion, just anyone who was over 18 and overseas who might be interested in a relationship. Okay, so just tell me what you're saying in these messages. Just read them.

Hello, Patricia. Patricia Lava, how are you doing there? And he said, okay. I said, okay, there. It's good to hear.

So you're writing a lot. You're writing a lot.

I see Ture Wilson. She's in America. Salma Ahmed, America.

Some messaged back.

Ada Stel, as you say, America. Come out to country, Brazil.

There was a single mom in Brazil who liked his muscles. The Sierra Leonean student in Sydney who talked to him because he reminded her of home. The nurse in London who thought he was good banter. Whenever he came across married women, he would keep it pushing, but he was hoping to connect with almost anyone overseas.

It makes me feel good, like talking to someone that is far away from me, like someone that is in America. It would make me feel like... I would just close my eyes. I feel like I'm... I feel like I'm in America.

Listening to Mark, it was like I was watching an episode of 90 Day, Fiancé, but seeing the side of the story, I'd always wanted to see, the version where the hopes and dreams of the foreign spouse were finally center stage. My friend Mark was eagerly searching for a love that could transform his life. He made a few connections, but most women weren't interested in a long-distance relationship with a guy all the way in West Africa. So Mark struck out again and again.

At one significant day, I found Lottie.

He found Lottie.

Lottie Rebecca Beasley.

Lottie Rebecca Beasley.

She's my girlfriend. We don't get married to each other yet because of the distance. She's in America, I'm in Africa.

Lottie Rebecca Beasley was a black woman. Mark met through Facebook, and he just loved how regal her name sounded. Lottie Rebecca Beasley. You gotta say all three. She had kind eyes, a warm smile, and she lived in this state that Mark had never heard of.

Fairbanks, Alaska, in the morning. there, here is midnight. 1, 2, 3 o'clock a.m. in the morning. I usually wake up just to talk to Lottie until 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock a.m.

But the 9-hour time difference wasn't the only obstacle. There was another distance too.

She was born in 1949.

And did you know that before you clicked on her profile? No. A 70-year-old woman wasn't what Mark expected. Most of the guys at the gym who had been successful had ended up with wives closer to their own age. But while Mark had been casting a wide net in search of a relationship that could change his life, he was also open to meeting a new friend.

She said, hey, who are you, little boy? Who are you, little boy? What do you want?

How old were you when you met her?

21 or 22.

Mark was young, but he's a good listener. Before long, Lottie was telling him all about her life. She'd gone through a lot of heartbreak too. She'd been married 3 times, had 5 children, and after one of her husbands had become abusive, she needed to get away. That's how she ended up in Alaska.

About my life, how I lost my father, I lost my mother. She said, oh, you're an orphan. I said, yes. She was having this sympathy for me. She was feeling sorry for me.

For Mark, this thing that began as a friendship was starting to grow. He saw a potential for a romantic relationship, but Lottie struggled to see it, even though he felt like she wanted to. The age difference was too much. Mark says. most people feel that way.

Don't believe, don't believe. This is scam, this is scam. It's normal though. People get their own thoughts, get their own thinking. And life, people must talk anything they do in this life.

I got to say, when Mark first told me about Lottie, I had questions too. Like I wondered, was my friend now a bona fide romance scammer or something? Because it is true that the way that he was looking for love gave him the silhouette of a romance scammer. Scammers ask people questions about their personal life, send sweet messages. They try to earn trust before stealing your money and disappearing.

At one point, she asked me, she said, did you eat breakfast this morning? I said, what is breakfast?

And I said, what is breakfast?

I said, what do you mean by breakfast? I said, okay. I said, no. I said, please. I said, just try to understand.

Lottie asked about where Mark stayed, and he told her he shared one room with three other people, and most nights he would have to stand outside the house to talk to her so he wouldn't disturb his roommates. This is common. Most people in Ceylon live on roughly $2 a day. Mark had been making a little money playing soccer in some local leagues, but it wasn't enough to get by. Hearing about how Mark was struggling made Lottie upset, so she decided to start sending him money.

So, when she used to call me, Mark, I said, yeah, Lottie. Yes, sweetheart. Did you eat breakfast? I said, yeah. Now is the time to have breakfast.

What do you think you were providing her? What do you think you were giving her? How were you, like, contributing to the relationship? Because she's contributing money, and she's contributing,

Love.

I can see that. A lot of relationships involve some kind of transaction. Each person brings what they can offer to the mix. With Lottie, it's money, at least partly. And with Mark, it's his time and care.

We talk about everything. We talk about sex, we talk about everything.

So how did that, how does that, if you don't mind me asking, how do you.

We make sex on the phone.

Oh, you guys had phone sex?

Phone sex. Like, we talk, we're lying down, climb onto my chest. Okay, are you there? Can I put something there? Okay.

Let me ask you this question, actually. Are you attracted to her?

Yeah.

Yeah? Sure. What about her are you attracted to? Like, what turns you on about her?

Even.

Okay, so you think, when you and her meet in person, you have no issue having sex with her?

I have no issue. What?

If I'm being real, my worry for Mark isn't just about whether or not he's attracted to Lottie. There's a darker place my mind wanders off to. It's hard not to see their relationship in the context of the exploitation that's happening in West Africa right now. Sexual tourism has been a growing problem in the Gambia, for example. Older women have been descending on the country and spending their money on sex with young African men.

Just like I told you earlier that I want to accomplish my dream. Like, I want to go to the United States or Europe.

That's not feelings you have for her. That's feelings you have for your dream. Those are two different things.

Yeah. If she's the one who's going to take me from here,

then.

I've already said, if you take me out of here, trust me, no matter the age difference, I swear to my life, we'll be together till God sends one home.

So you told her, if you take me out of here, I'll love you forever, basically. So she knows that there's something that you want. She knows that there's something that you want beyond her.

Yeah, sure.

I'd been reaching out to Lottie for weeks, with no luck to get her side of all of this. Then, finally, early one morning, around 3 a.m.

Hello?

Hello?

Hello?

She called me back, and we talked for a while. I didn't know what to expect, but Lottie was very open about her life. She told me more about her work caring for the elderly, the grandson who put her up in her own apartment when she got older. And then, of course, we talked about her feelings for Mark.

I love Mark. I didn't know, I can't even understand how I fell in love with Mark. Because I ain't never dealt with no young man. I was just talking to him as a friend.

Lottie can be a little hard to understand. sometimes. It's because of a botched intubation she went through years ago. But I have to say, despite that, she doesn't come off as the kind of person who doesn't have agency over her life. At 73, she can clearly hold her own.

And I don't let nothing stop me. Did you see my picture on Facebook?

Yeah, yeah, I've seen it.

Do I look like I'm 73 years old?

My mother definitely taught me better than to comment on a woman's age, but I will say in Lottie's profile picture, she has a very youthful energy about her. In our conversation, she confirmed all of what Mark said about their relationship, and how intense their connection was from the start.

I never experienced anything like this. I mean, I talked to him, I used to talk to him, sometimes 50 times a day.

Wow.

I was, like, sad. You know, I wasn't happy. I was lonely.

Mm-hmm.

And from talking to him, that's how my heart grew to him. We talk about life together. We talk about. I have dreamed sometimes.

of me and Mark.

coming in the house one day and how happy I was.

So you feel like he loves you for who you are?

Yes.

Lottie said that it had been a while since men. her age gave her a chance. It had been more than 10 years since her previous relationship. And with Mark, she felt like she'd found something real. But some of the things she told me about her life were head-spinning.

She said that?

What did you say back?

That is the happiest moment for me.

It was an official thing, it was very official.

Yeah, for me to go to the, walk into American Embassy. Wow, American Embassy? For an interview. Wow, even when they don't issue me a visa. I'm sad about that.

Because you got to touch a piece of America.

It's really, really a blessing to me.

After the failed interview at the embassy, Mark and Ladi tried to regroup and come up with a different plan. But her health worsened. Then, one day last year, Ladi didn't answer the phone when Mark called. For weeks, he couldn't reach her. Until finally, she messaged him on Facebook.

Things are really hard for her. Because, like, she's all alone in her house. People don't come to help. Sometimes, I shed tears for her. It is really paining me.

Talking to Mark, I can tell that he's genuinely troubled by what Ladi's been going through. It's also true that since the downturn in her health, his circumstances have gotten worse. He says without the money she was sending, he got evicted. He doesn't always have money for food. But he insists, even though Ladi has stopped supporting him, he still feels responsible for her.

When she was supporting me, when she was, like, she was okay, she was not sick. And now, if she's, like, in this difficult time, she's not even walking, I think I should be with her, too. And that's my duty, to look after her. Nothing does not, the love does not stop, because I love her, because I have all relations to her. I love her.

The way Mark is talking about Ladi here, it reminds me of a business person talking about sunk costs. Someone who's reluctant to give up on something they've invested in for a long time. It brings me right back to my initial worry. What does Mark actually feel? And what is he convincing himself?

Nobody's not using anyone between me and Lloydy.

The U.

You know him very well, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Do you think he loves me?

Yes. Do I think he loves you?

Yes.

I got the sense that a lot of people in her life have asked her the same thing for years. And, honestly, it was a hard question to answer. I think...

Do you think Mark really loves me?

I've asked him the same question, Lloydy. I've asked him the same question, up, left, down, right, and center, and he says yes. And I'm not gonna be... I'm not gonna lie to you. I didn't believe him either, because of the age difference, because of the cultural difference, because of the distance.

I feel he loves me. In my heart, I feel he loves me.

Ultimately, I don't think it's my place to decide whether or not two people love each other. That's a call. only they get to make, the way everyone else gets to. But I do know both Mark and Lloydy have been through plenty of heartbreak. And I know heartbreak is just love without a place to call home.

Saeed Tijan Thomas Jr. used to be the host of the podcast Resistance. These days, he's getting his MFA in acting from New York University. His story was produced by Elise Spiegel. About a year after we first aired this story, Lloydy's niece texted Mark saying Lloydy had died.

Tell me that it's real.

Don't let love come.

just to pass us by.

Try.

It's all we have.

to do. It's up to me and you.

love last.

forever more.

Coming up, Tig Notaro, and a love that dare not speak its name. That's in a minute. From Chicago Public Radio, When Our Program Continues.

What's the address of San An?

We don't know.

You don't know?

We're stuck in the sewers.

You're stuck where?

In the sewers.

In the sewers. Five kids, Staten Island. You know, a normal Tuesday night.

How did you guys get in there?

We went through the tunnels.

They went through the tunnels. The dispatcher hands over the call to another dispatcher, Marlon Taxialliou.

Hey, did you guys.

go on from Broadway or Marling, the main entrance?

It's like close by. Where? In the parking lot? No, no, no. You know where the cemetery is?

Yeah. Can we just step back and admire this dispatcher, who seems to know every sewer entrance on Staten Island.

Okay, but what do you mean by a sewer? Is it like a grate?

It's like a tunnel where all the pipes are.

It's like a tunnel where all the pipes are.

It's like a tunnel.

Listen to me. I know the area.

very well. I'm trying to ask you, how did you get to the sewer? You walked through the cemetery, right? Did you go right?

or left at the end of the cemetery? I need you to guide me.

We went down.

Very quickly, they figure out where the kids are.

I'm going to get you some help, okay?

I hear sirens.

Hang on.

Yeah.

Hold on. We're going to get you. Now. you can scream as loud as you can. They want you to scream and yell.

These kids. It's like they went through a trap door from regular New York to underground New York. It was going on all the time, of course, under the city. Sewers and tunnels and water mains. Literally just shouting distance away.

Green, are you in?

Call for help, guys. They hear you. Call for help.

Screaming.

Screaming.

If you listen very closely, it sounds like one of the kids actually laughs a little on that last scream. Like, it is so weird. an adult is asking them to do this. The kids were rescued pretty quickly. None of them were hurt.

Keep screaming, guys. Keep screaming. I want you guys to scream as loud as you want.

Screaming.

Screaming.

Screaming. Screaming. Screaming. Screaming.

Which brings us to act two. Where we have another kind of rescue, another fire department. Act two, fire sale. So, comedian Tig Notaro has been on our show many, many times talking about her random encounters with pop star Taylor Dane. Or, memorably, she was diagnosed with stage two cancer and went up on stage that night and did a stand-up set about it that we played here on the show.

She fell asleep immediately. And I was up. I was having some pain in my stomach. And because she fell asleep right away, I thought, well, I'm not going to wake her up. So, I was lying there, thinking, I'm sure this is nothing.

God, that's so dramatic.

There's going to be lights and sirens flying down our street. What if this is nothing? She calls 911.. And this gigantic fireman appears at our bedroom door. I mean, he's huge.

Bada bing, bada boom.

I mean, truly, I was like, oh, I get it now.

best.

Classic him. He's just tiptoeing past their bedroom. We go down the stairs and Stephanie's father lives with us and he carries me past my father-in-law and Stephanie opens the door and we walk past her, and I just turned and was like, goodbye, old life!

and.

overhears this and she has this look of disgust on her face and she's like, I'm sorry, but you thought that fireman was hot? I was like, um, yeah. This is not up for discussion.

This is not.

a matter of opinion. This is a matter of fact.

Dignitaro. She's the co-host of the podcast Handsome. Her new stand-up special, Hello Again, is out on Prime Video.

Why do earth suddenly appear every?

you are near.

They long to be.

close to you.

Well, the program was produced today by Lily Sullivan. The people who put together today's show include Eleanor Baker, Zoe Chase, Sean Cole, Michael Kamatea, Vivida Kornfeld, Valerie Kipnis, Tobin Lowe, Ella Mostafa, Stone, Nelson, Catherine Raimondo, Nadia, Raymond, Ryan Rummery, Charlotte Sleeper, Ike Srees, Khanda Raja, Frances Swanson, Christopher Svitala, Matt Tierney, and Julie Whittaker. Our managing editors, Sara Abdurrahman. Our senior editors, David Kastnerbaum. Our executive editors, Emmanuel Berry.

feminist writer, Belle Hooks, says love is made up of seven parts.

I'm, Eric Glass. Back next week with more stories of this American life.

Thank you.