Lisa Kudrow
2024-07-31 01:10:05
Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson are total opposites with an unbreakable bond since meeting on the hit sitcom “Cheers.” But after that show wrapped, life took them in different directions. This podcast is a chance to reconnect, both with each other and the amazing friends they’ve each met over the decades—that is, when Ted can get a hold of Woody! Join them as they dig beyond the career highlights and into the stuff of life that makes us who we are. Like the title says, this is a place to be known.
I went online once.
I don't go online.
Then never again.
Yeah. I knew I couldn't handle it.
Oh, no. I couldn't do it. Well, two of them are sexy. That other one, yeah, blah. I just went, what?
Well, all right.
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Where Everybody Knows Your Name. Today, I'm talking with Lisa Kudrow, an amazing actor who we've all seen over the years and fallen in love with how talented she is. Maybe it was her role as Phoebe on Friends, for which she won an Emmy. Or maybe you saw her in Romy and Michelle's high school reunion, or the comeback.
You know, the first time I saw her was really up close, was on an episode of Cheers. And all of us, the entire cast, were going, wait a minute, what is that? Where did she come from? It was so amazing, so unique and different than most performances you were seeing those days. So I was a huge fan from the moment I met her.
She's now starring in a new Apple TV Plus series that's out now, called Time Bandits. It's based on the book by Terry Gilliam of Monty Python fame, which means it's right up my alley. Here she is, ladies and gentlemen, Lisa Kudrow.
I'm always a little embarrassed to see you and when we bump into each other in public and I don't know why, and I get kind of tongue-tied and probably because I really love your work. Wow. And all of that. Yeah. Wow.
You actually once had to go, hello, Ted. I did. Because I was standing there being a wallflower.
I don't think that was my tone.
No, no, but it was meant, I'm here, you can say hi to me. Really? Truly, that's how it felt, but that's probably because of my neuroses.
I don't think I would ever try to communicate that thought to you, ever.
Really?
Yes, never. Because it would be, well, why would he want to acknowledge me? Oh, good. Not, acknowledge me, it's not, not, but it's more of the like, no, I should be saying hello to him. He doesn't go out of his way to say hello to me.
We're all in our own little fears.
Yeah, you are up here and I'm here, is how it goes.
I know, that's, no.
What?
No, I, listen.
Oh, no, that's just a fact. That's like gravity, you know,
certain laws of physics. All right, so now I feel comfortable, because you're acknowledging me. We can begin now, but it always takes, can you just acknowledge me, and then, okay, good. I have the right to be here. Mary, my wife.
Yes.
Sends her love.
Yeah, I love her.
Yeah, have you ever got to spend any time with her?
Some, I feel like I have. At parties, I feel like we talk. I was at a table reading of, so long ago, for the movie, Hanging Up, and she was running late, and Steve Martin was there, because he was also gonna do the reading, as a favorite in Nora Ephron. Someone said, we should give Mary a lot of shit when she gets here, and Steve went, no, don't you dare. No, she will really.
Take it to heart.
She already feels bad. Yeah. That she's late, and I thought, oh, wow.
That's Mary.
She sends much love. What a decent human, yeah.
And we both had the same reaction, I think, when we first saw you on screen, which was, who is that? And my, I don't know if this, I'll start speaking for myself, not Mary, but it was like, you came on the screen for me, fully baked, with this kind of, this. was not you literally, or even implying this with your work, but relaxed. You're in good hands, and this confidence to be your quirky self.
Oh, wow.
Was just breathtaking. Oh, that's good to hear. And I spoke to somebody, and we'll move on in a minute, but I spoke to somebody this morning, Maddie, who you met, who said, quirky girls everywhere have Lisa Kudrow to thank for having it be okay to be quirky.
Yeah.
And that's true, you know?
That's nice. I mean, and I, by the way, since Friends, I've heard that, but the whole time doing Friends, I wasn't aware of that at all.
Of what?
That, because I have heard from quirky girls, you know, that, you know, yes, it's okay to be different, and not everyone is gonna get me, and that's gonna be okay, and yeah. And for me, it was just a comedic choice I was making for the character to just not be aware that she was quirky.
I think I saw an interview where you were saying that's part of the development, that Phoebe was having to say these most outrageous things when you were looking at the script. Yeah, right. How do you do that and be funny?
You know, to me, what's funny is always the person who's completely unaware of how they're coming off, and I think that's all of us at times, whether you're like a genius professor or an actual ignoramus.
Yeah.
So, you know, but it's seldomly an actual ignoramus. It's usually, yeah.
It's still, it takes a lot of courage to stand up and be that, I think, because you're saying, I know, and you don't. I mean, you're playing, that. You're playing, hmm, I don't understand why you might even think that I'm quirky. You're quirky. Right.
Not me. I can't understand why you don't understand the world I'm living in. Yeah. Which is, anyway.
Yeah, but by the way, I mean, and thank God you don't remember, I was on Cheers.
No, I do remember. Took a peek of you and Woody on the ladder.
Yeah, that wasn't, I wasn't fully baked at all. That was my very first, I think I got, like, Taft-Hartley'd, or some step toward being in the union doing that.
Really, was that one of your first?
It was my very first appearance on a sitcom.
No, see, I saw it this morning. I watched it again this morning. You did not come on half-baked.
Really?
Yeah.
Oh, dear. I'm afraid to watch it.
Oh, don't, you are wonderful.
Geez, I don't even know if I had a trailer or a space. I just stayed on set to watch the whole week. That's all I wanted to do. It's like, how does this work? Let me see.
And you weren't there most of the week because you were doing a film, I think. And when you showed up, like, Thursday, would it have been, you know, whatever the day before shoot day is, you know, for camera blocking or something. And everybody was, Ted, it was as if like, oh, like. there's ballast now for us here, like something.
I think, being tall, you can get away with lots of things like, oh good, he's here.
I don't think so. And I could tell you were just so nice and happy to be there.
Yeah, it's true, I still am. Aren't you? I mean, do you love going to work? Do you love being around crews?
Yes.
Me too.
Yeah, I do. And, but I don't know if I always was.
Because?
Because I was still like- Nervous? I'm always trying to figure things out and it could be better. and, you know. And I think I finally got to, and it was after Friends, where it's, everything's great, everything's okay. I'm so happy to be here.
And then acting is a little easier also when you're relaxed.
Yeah, yeah.
And everything's okay.
Can we back up a second? Yeah. Because I also looked at your, Who Do You Think You Are?
Oh, yeah.
Which is brilliant, by the way. I can't remember if you are Skip Gates.
Yeah, mm-hmm.
Did you come first or did Skip follow your roots? I can't remember.
Well, Who Do You Think You Are was first in the UK. Right. That was first. And I know the creator of the show worked with Skip Gates on something, and Skip Gates did Finding Your Roots, but it was tied to the African-American experience. That was first.
So we were about the same time in the US.
Mary and I did Follow Your Roots and it was- Yeah.
I saw it. Yeah. Because I watched that religiously. Yeah.
Mary's version of her story was, I think somebody had been on recently and then had asked to edit out the fact that one of his relatives owned slaves.
Owned slaves, yeah.
Because who wants that? Except we all did, most families did. If you go back far enough in this country. Anyway, she said, that doesn't concern me at all. I just don't want to be boring.
Please, do not let me be boring. And because it's on camera, as your life is being revealed and you don't know anything about it. You don't even turn the page until he tells you to. She's going, I'm on camera. How do I, if this is boring, I just can't stand the idea.
And first, out of the gate, was, the parents were easy. And here's your grandfather. And do you know what he did? And no, well, turn the page. Your grandfather was a woodcutter.
And Mary's going, oh, dear God, please. And this was your great-grandfather. He also was a woodcutter. And it just got worse and worse until finally something really fascinating happened.
Well, they also have an editor on the show.
So that's good too.
But that was one of the big things for everyone. who did our show, who did Who Do You Think You Are? Everyone was terrified of being boring. And I had to tell them, we wouldn't be shooting it.
That's true.
If it was boring. Because we can't do a show if it's just 10 generations of sheepherders.
It's also you have to, for you to be able to do your job, there has to be a paper trail. Yeah. Right, you can only do anecdotal things up to a point. Then you need paper to say this is where you came from.
Oh, yeah. My dad was the big family tree guy. And I was always, oh my God, who cares? Until I saw the show, Who Do You Think You Are? In like 2007,, I was shooting something in Ireland and went, what?
This is the most fascinating thing I've ever seen. And why don't we have it in the US? We're not too dumb for this. And yeah, so I got in touch with the guy who created it and said, we wanna do it here.
I brought it up because what I saw was, when I checked it out, was you and your dad, incredibly touching and moving. And I don't know if your father was, but immediately I felt this, what a sweet man. What a sweet soul.
Yeah, he's a good person, yeah.
He's here and alive and well.
Oh, he is, he's 91..
Oh, well done. Yeah. Well done to you. That's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, he is.
How lucky, how wonderful.
And he kept saying, well, I don't know if I wanna be on camera, I don't wanna cry. Yeah. I said, all right, my dad can't be on camera. And they went, mm, he has to be, you know? Yeah.
And he did cry.
So you and your dad. Yeah. Obviously quite a bond in that you, your father, was a biologist.
He's a doctor, yeah.
He is a doctor.
Yeah, he's retired, but. Right.
Uh-huh. But did research into whether there was a headline, I'm sure he did way more, but whether cluster headaches and being left-handed, if there's any correlation to that.
Or handedness and headache type was the question.
What was it?
Handy? There's different headache types. So handedness, which is, oh no, hemispheric dominance, right, would be the term. And if there's any relationship between that and the nine different headache types.
See, I'm listening to your words and looking at your lips and going, gosh, this just went over my head. But that's why you went off to become a biologist at Vassar, right? Yeah. To get a degree in biology. Yeah.
Okay, so that's immediately not like most actors' paths. I was off frolicking in the woods, jumping on horses and paying attention to nothing, my scientist father, who was an anthropologist, archaeologist.
Oh, wow.
Nothing. Right. I got the essence of him. Yeah. And anthropology.
But the details went flying over my head. Not you.
No, which means you were better prepared for your chosen field than I was.
I can't say, well, better prepared, maybe, but the result is, here. you are, you know, being astounding. And that's how I want to get, how do you go from Vassar, I'm assuming somewhere down the line, first was Groundlings. But what was that, oh, maybe I won't be a PhD in biology. Yeah.
Maybe I will be an actor. What was that?
That was,
you know, when I was younger, like in junior high, and before that, I loved play production, writing sketches, and acting and doing all that. But high school, by the time I got to high school, I thought, no, no, that's not the adult I want to be.
Right.
And I'd see people on talk shows and think, no, what a wreck of, you know, they're wrecks, scandals and all that stuff. And I thought, no, no, I don't think so. And so my creative outlet was biology, and, you know, like evolutionary theory, and, you know, those things.
And it was such a turn on for me, intellectually. And then, so that was it.
Still high school you're talking about?
High school and college, college too. I didn't do a play. I didn't do nothing. I was busy in labs and I was, you know, interested in evolutionary biology. and that's what I was going to do.
And, but I'd come home like for spring break or whatever, I'm driving around cause I grew up in LA and I hear on the radio, like a commercial, some promo for a sitcom, and they're, you know, highlighting what they think is their best joke. And it's terrible to me. It's like, you know, well, that's a horse of a different color. You know, it's just, and I'm thinking, oh my God, why are they just hitting it so hard? They should throw it away more.
At least they remember to throw it away. And I went, wait, what?
Yeah.
What? That's not, why do I have to remember to throw it away? It doesn't even make, that's not what I'm going to be doing. And then I would watch Letterman, say, and see someone and I've, you know, being very like pretentious and sort of, you know, like no one alive now talks like that, actually. This is complete affect.
And then the thought was, oh, good God, when you're on Letterman, please just be yourself. And then I went, wait, why would I be on Letterman for some breakthrough I made in evolutionary theory? Ooh, that would be nice. But why would he have me on? So I had these weird things happen.
And when I graduated, right that summer, John Lovitz, who's my brother's best friend, and I grew up with him and I'd seen him struggling and trying to be an actor and thinking, oh my God, God bless, like how's that ever going to happen? And he got on Saturday Night Live. And I went, oh.
There's a path.
Wow, yeah. That's so, it's not just for some like magical people that are touched by. I don't know what magic and can do it. And then it just was, okay, I'm 22.. I don't have any responsibilities.
This is kind of a selfish pursuit. Now's the time.
Did you include your parents or was it just, I'm an adult, I can do this?
I told my parents and you know what? They went, oh, thank God. Something's got to lighten you up. Oh, really? And part of it was, I think, like, and how are you going to meet a man?
You're not 40 enough. Yes, too serious. You don't play the game. Yeah. Look at your sister.
She's adorable. I have an older sister who's always, people were always in love with her, and she's beautiful too. And I just went, yeah, I don't know. Anyway.
You don't have to be this, someone else's definition of what it is to be a woman or whatever. No, I'm going to do my own path.
Yes, yeah.
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So bravely you walked out the door and?
Well, I talked to John Levitz and he said, groundlings is where I learned the most of all the acting classes. And I studied in college and the most useful, best thing was groundlings, because for improv you have to really listen and respond.
I hate that, but go on.
It would have been good if you went. Yeah, wait, what'd you say? Oh, look, a refrigerator.
But so I called them and they said, okay, well, when's the last time you acted? I said, junior high. Great, we're gonna send you to someone else first.
Groundlings said this.
Yeah, to even take classes. No, that was a no. And they sent me to a teacher named Cynthia Segeti, who is phenomenally good.
And not just, was she under the auspice of groundlings?
I think she used to be a groundling. She used to be a groundling and she had these classes herself.
So I did that and the first week I thought, oh no, I can't, this is not for me. These aren't my people. These are people like, no, yeah, I just did a commercial and everyone's like, wow, that's great. And I'm like, great. And seeing them do stuff like lift a disc and thrown out emotional adjustments and Cynthia's like, commit, commit.
I'm like, I don't know, commit? I don't know what that means in this context. I'm still so scholastic, you know what I mean? Or academic, and thinking too much. And then I see them lifting a disc and you're angry.
Like, grr, I went, grr, oh no, that's not, I don't know. I don't think so. And so the next class, the next week, I was late because I wasn't even sure I was gonna go, because I was just gonna give up. Like, I don't think this is for me. But I went.
The whole thing, not just this class. The whole thing, this pursuit. But the whole thing. Because I thought comedy will be easier going. Instead, I can't do like a dramatic acting class.
That's taking yourself way too seriously. I can't do that. And I went and I was late. So they were already up and there was someone new in the class. And this guy was so good.
They were throwing space balls. And he just did it. It just looked like he was throwing a ball. He wasn't making a meal out of it. And when it was angry, he was just a little angry.
And Cynthia was saying, that's good commitment, Conan. Really good. And I went, okay. And we were done. I made a beeline for him and said, hi, that was really good.
I'm Lisa. And he said, oh, Conan, hi. And we became best friends.
And was he in a similar position in that this was his kind of first outing into this world?
Groundlings wouldn't take him either. Yeah. I love it. For classes. But from there, we went to groundling classes.
And to this day, you're good buddies. Yeah. Well, sure. I can't claim good buddy. And when I said that I work for him, the other day, Woody and I were on this podcast.
He went, wait, what do you mean? Well, I'm in team, Coco, isn't it? Don't? I work for Conan, kind of, more or less? Kind of.
He's one of the nicest.
Yeah.
Brightest. Funniest people, but a gentleman.
Yes.
He is a gentleman. That appeals to me a lot.
Yeah, me too. Yeah. So funny. Hilarious. And not mean hilarious.
No, you're right.
And that was the thing for me. That was, okay, that's also a great example of that. And I just was a barnacle. Whether he liked it or not.
Yeah.
I was gonna be by his side watching and taking him in and soaking him up.
When I get to look at a script and wonder, my first question is, how do I be funny? What is this tone or how does this character get to be funny?
Yeah.
Do you think you started to formulate?
how to be funny that you see now in your work even today? Or just, yeah, that's my question.
That's a good question. I worked at it more before than I do now.
Now, to me, the problem is the tone.
Sure.
More than anything else. Not problem, but figuring out the tone is the scary part. But yeah, it was what's wrong with this person that they're not aware of? And those are the cracks I wanna show.
I love that. Mine is, for me, my funny has to come out of sadness. Some sort of human frailty. Yeah. If I have to play standing upright, wear a coat and tie, I'm horrible.
I have to be tilting a little bit too far in one direction for me, Ted, to feel comfortable. I feel uncomfortable walking into a room.
unless somehow I've been given license, because I, Ted, don't feel worthy of walking into a room. And so I think that kind of affected how I always wanna play something a little left or right of center.
But also, see, now you're saying something that I've sort of suspected was true. Because you know how a lot of people say, oh, actors, their egos, and they just want so much attention. And I think most of us have said, oh, yeah, I guess I just, yeah, who doesn't like attention, I guess? But one thing that struck me recently was I know for myself, and I think for a lot of other actors, you're not doing it because you want attention, necessarily. You're doing it because you love being someone else.
Boom.
Which is why I love doing a podcast. These are all horrible things to say, but I wanna know what makes you tick. How did you become you? And where do you wanna go? What do you wanna do?
Who are you? And my father? once, I always wondered whether my father really knew me. My father, the anthropologist.
And you, yeah.
And he once said, I've always known that you, and I was like 35 by then, or almost 40 or something. I've always known that you really wanna know what it's like to be somebody else. And it's like, oh, you have witnessed me. Wow. But yeah, that's what I want.
And somewhere along the line, a teacher once said to me that this is a noble profession. Your job is to reflect the human condition. And I take that seriously. I mean, why else would you do it if there wasn't some degree of service to the greater good, which is reflecting who we are.
It is. And also entertainment is a service. It really is. It is. I didn't take that.
I don't know if, while you were doing Cheers, you really felt like that's what you were doing for people, but I didn't.
I can't remember if I did,
but somewhere during the middle of, or certainly after, people coming up and saying, my father was dying, and he and I would lie on a sofa together and watch Cheers and be able to laugh. So, you know, the old, well, we're not curing cancer, I disagree.
Right, right. Maybe we're not finding a solution to cancer, but we're definitely helping, enriching people's lives or making it a little easier to get through hard times or the escape you need. at the end of the day. I don't go to sleep before watching a sitcom.
Me too.
And, by the way, the last one I was watching is Cheers.
Oh, right, right, right, Cheers, yes. I can't find it. Where is it? I'd watch myself.
Paramount.
Paramount, Paramount Plus or something, probably. Probably.
Yeah, because Paramount owns it. So it would be on Paramount Plus. Yeah, but the pilot, I hadn't really taken it in or seen it since, I think, when it was in reruns, like 80s, 90s. That's the best pilot, I think, ever.
It has that reputation.
In the history of the world.
Because pilots are hard.
It was so artful, hilarious, and sensitive. And you, I mean, watching you was a revelation to me when I was watching, at the time, watching the show. And then the movies you were in, it's like, wow, he's just effortless. Oh my God, so effortless and so real.
Wow, because that's my description of you, that kind of, if you're doing a sitcom, there are jokes. You know, X amount per page, kind of thinking. sometimes. If you're lucky, they're character-driven, which we both were. But I also was either trained by Jimmy Burroughs, Lesson, Glenn Charles, who were the creators of Cheers.
Or it just happens to be. also, what appeals to me most is that kind of homeopathic approach to a joke. How far can you go in the opposite direction of that joke and have it still be funny? Is something I love.
Yeah.
I love that.
It's almost like you're, because there has to be some surprise in order for it to be comedy.
Oh, I saw that coming. Yeah? Yeah.
So yeah, everything you said was,
could not have been predicted.
Okay, so, but from my vantage point, you came in with that, fully loaded, like I said.
Oh, great, okay.
But so, does that mean that you kind of worked on that? No, does that mean you owe me everything? Yeah. Does that mean you were working on that in Groundlings? Or how did?
Yes, okay, so I got into the Groundlings and I kind of don't know why, because the things I would do, that was not a crowd pleaser for the Groundling audience. I didn't have like the blackened teeth and the fright wigs and stuff. I mean, I had to once in a while, but no, I remember there was one of the directors of the Groundlings said something about like, yeah, I don't know, you're stuff.
You know, or someone came in to watch something and they want some of the Groundlings to perform, and I don't get it, they wanted you.
And they saw Julia Sweeney and Kathy Griffin was there and I don't get it, but they wanted you. I was like, okay.
Yeah, that is stupid of them. But my stuff was never a big crowd, pleaser.
And yet,
right out of the gate, people are going and I don't know if you, some part of you must know this. Who is she?
Yeah.
Right out of the gate, you elicited that kind of, oh my God, who is she? Where did she come from?
Oh wow, well, I know, because I got to do a recurring role on Mad About You. Right. And I remember, I was told later, Helen Hunt went, what the fuck? Like, is that,
is she, she's either really bad or brilliant. Yeah.
That's kind of one of the highest compliments you can get.
That's how I took it. I thought, oh good, so they can't tell the difference between me and the person who.
And you're eliciting an emotion, a reaction. You're not just, oh yeah, one of the crowd. Yeah. That's so cool. I'm going to jump around, please forgive me.
I really want to know, here you are, I think, Friends, even more than Cheers, was a rocket ship to fame. I remember hearing that, Jimmy Burrow, did you all go to Vegas with Jimmy? Yeah. Right.
His idea.
His idea, yeah, sorry, because I know that's your favorite place. I do love it. Do you? Oh, my God. The gambling or the people?
Gambling. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.
You almost quivered when you said gambling.
That's how excited I get. Well, I haven't done it in a long time.
But if you could.
Well, any kind of blackjack game.
Yeah.
Is fun to me.
See, I want people to like me so much that I would give away all my tips to whoever was dealing the cards. Really? Yeah, here, I'll gamble with you. So no matter what.
Oh, I'd do that. Yeah, but it's hard to win any kind of money.
Oh, you think you'll get more money by doing that? Or, see, I just do it to be liked.
No, it's sort of that like, oh, right, I gave up on trying to be liked.
Really?
I learned.
Is there a pill?
Well, I just learned early on, that's the one thing you can't control.
Yeah, actually, that's true. And now, more than ever, you know that for a fact. Just go online.
Oh, I never, I went online once.
I don't go online.
And then never again.
Yeah, I knew I couldn't handle it.
Oh, no, I couldn't do it. Because, well, those other, those, well, two of them are sexy. That other one, yeah, blah. And I just went, what? Well, all right.
That's fine. Okay, you're very sexy. I say that for quirky men everywhere.
I know I'm not. And that's okay, especially now. But, I mean, that's okay. But I just went, oh, I see. This is not gonna serve me.
So I'm gonna stop.
I didn't know how to play Sam Malone, whether or not you agree or not, or other people, whatever, until about a year and a half in. Because I did not know what arrogance meant. I had never been to a bar. I did not pick women up. I was not a womanizer.
I maybe had wanted to be, but I wasn't. Women had to be standing opposite me naked for me to go, oh, me? You're talking about me? Oh, wow. I think my motive of seduction was, hey, it's me, Ted.
I'm just one of the girls. Let's take our clothes off. That's who I was. That was the opposite. Yeah, I'm safe.
That's the opposite of Sam Malone. And it was only after about getting the feedback of after a year and a half and realizing, oh, half the people like me, half the people hate me. So what the fuck? I'm gonna do this for myself. And slowly, which is a form of arrogance.
I don't care what you think. I'm gonna just keep doing what I'm doing. And that was when I began to learn how to play Sam, that kind of arrogance that I, Ted, didn't have. I didn't feel I have license to do that in life. I got to do that.
Wait, but do you honest to God think, like the first season?
I think the writing. That wasn't Sam? I think everything about it was brilliant. I think, I mean, literally, I didn't know whether Sam was smart or dumb. Whether he was playing dumb.
So that works.
Yeah. I just didn't feel comfortable in it. Whenever I had to, Sam would come on to some girl at the bar, which was always, I would be breaking into Ted sweat.
Wow.
Just so embarrassing. It did the show. The writing was so good that it worked, and all of that.
Well, you were also so good. It's not just the writing. Thank you.
God, what is it, about 20 minutes into this little rant of mine, and you finally said that? Whew, took you a long, long time.
It took me, if not a year and a half, maybe two seasons, before I felt like I had Phoebe down.
What was it you found or didn't have you thought?
before that?
The things she said were so outrageously illogical that in order for me to justify them, I felt like, oof, it just took a lot of work to figure out, all right, how is it possible that I think this is true, or a good idea, or a reasonable thing to say?
All right, something to be happy about.
Yeah, it was acting work that I was doing.
To make a puzzle.
Yeah, to make it look real. And so I think it's second season or third season, and I'm doing it, and I'm like, something's wrong, because I'm not doing the work I was doing. I'm slacking off, I'm being lazy, and I was getting really mad at myself, and LeBlanc came, he said, what's going on with you? I said, I'm being lazy, I'm not doing the work that I did first season, second season, I'm not doing the work I did. For Phoebe, so it can't be good, and he went, no, you know who the character is now, you don't need to do the work you did, you got it.
And I went, what, oh.
And relax.
Is that possibly true? And yeah, that was enough. He sort, it's sort of like someone shook me, because I was getting hysterical, I wasn't literally getting hysterical, but you know, like, if you're getting hysterical, someone slaps you back, like, oh, thanks, yeah, that's what I needed, yeah.
I had a version of that when I saw the pilot of Cheers, and we were shooting, because that happened, I think it aired, the pilot aired.
Right, it's not like anyone. showed you the pilot before. No. Right? No.
Right. We didn't earn that. No, it aired.
And I said, Jimmy, can I talk to you? Went behind the curtains, and went, and broke into tears, saying, I'm really bad, I'm awful, I don't know what to, I don't know what to type, and he listened for a second, then broke into a huge laugh, and walked off.
And it was like. Sounds right. Yeah, so it was like, oh, all right, I'll keep that one to myself.
That was your slap.
Yeah, that was my slap.
Oh, no, but you kept it to yourself, you didn't let it go. You didn't let it go.
It took me a year.
My God, isn't it funny? Maybe there's something also, did you recognize too much of yourself in Sam, but it wasn't right? Or you didn't recognize yourself at all, and that's what threw you? No, that's not it.
Ooh, this is deep, actually.
Seriously. I really wanna know, what do you think?
I think I, and I do this in life, and I probably did it with you when we first sat down, I tilt too far forward. To make myself feel safe, I kind of, I don't know if that translates, but I tilt too far forward, as opposed to rocking back and have the confidence that I'm here and that's enough kind of thing. And it took me a while to get that into Sam, which is I'm plenty, this is good enough. And then you have this freedom of not trying to please, but just to have fun and explore and be in the moment and whatever.
Yeah.
But at first, I'm just so.
Still, when you start a new project.
Still, like the beginning of this interview. You know, I'm always.
Or a movie or a show.
Yes, yes, in the beginning. And I go for all the worst acting traps in the world. I'd be much happier if somebody said, okay, here's the part, he has a limp and a scar,
and I'd go, oh, great, thank you.
There's my work, my work is done.
Or what about, I was talking to someone, an actor who is very good and works a lot, and went, when I had to stop auditioning, I got terrified, because they don't know what I'm gonna do. And I show up and it's like, uh-oh, I'm gonna be a huge disappointment. And yeah, and this is not at all what they imagined. And sometimes I would sort of want to know, wait, why do you want me, based on which aspect of me?
No, this is absolutely, but I think that's, I don't know if I still do that, but when I went through that first five or six years of not having to audition for something, I felt that loss of, wait a minute, I don't know if I'm right for this. Why don't we just sit down and figure this out before you offer me the job? Let me do it. And we will both go, oh, this is good. Or maybe I'll go, ooh, I don't want to work for you.
It's a great opportunity, audition.
Yeah. Although,
that's a bit. Don't want to do it. I don't want to do it.
So I'm supposed to say, yeah, just offer it to me.
So you're massively famous. now. I'm talking about friends. Yeah.
Not right now. Friends, yeah.
You're massively famous. No, that's not what I was wishing for. People were so excited that you were coming in this building today, literally. Oh my gosh. Not a fan, your face fan thing, because you've affected people in a way that makes them think and makes them feel better about themselves in a real way, not just the laugh.
And you do do that.
Oh, good.
Yeah, it is good.
That's who do you think you are?
Yeah. Proud of. Yeah. So, okay, so, now you're hugely famous, and that was like, had to be like a wave of energy coming your way. Yeah.
How did that feel? How did you cope?
I felt so protected because I was one of six experiencing it at the same time. And we could talk about it with each other without sounding. Yeah. Ungrateful or.
Look at me or anything. Yeah.
So to me, the thing I always thought was, how do people do this alone? Like they're in a movie and then they become huge and they're alone.
How does Tom Cruise do it?
Well, I wasn't worried about him somehow.
Sorry, that was me, go on.
But.
There is a protection to ensemble, to friends.
Huge protection. Yeah. Huge protection. Yeah, what about you?
I somehow very, I stumble into life. My definition of who I am before I met Mary was I'm in the back of a pickup going through life, looking at life. come by me. I never turned around and looked through the front windshield. I was always surprised and delighted by what passed me by.
When I met Mary, before I met Mary, I finally had turned around and go, I want this in life. I want to be this in life. But before that, I was just blissfully passing by. What was your question that made me do this amazing metaphor?
I don't know. I don't remember anything.
Oh, good. So we're both small.
I mean, I know.
Fame, how I dealt with fame.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, thanks.
That's pretty good. Somewhere down the line, about the fourth or fifth year, I realized that fame was this huge amount of energy coming your way. And if you don't deflect it somehow, if you make it really about you, you're like that three-year-old in the middle of a room full of adults who all of a sudden all focus on that kid. You can spin them out in two seconds, which is not good for you. So I realized, oh, this is power, energy.
What should I do with it? And, coincidentally, found ocean activism. I became kind of interested in oceans and we were fighting oil companies and I had a way to go. Thank you for watching. Cheers.
Here's your autograph. And I'd like you to meet this marine biologist. She's amazing and she has something important to tell you. I realized my role could be the person in front of the tent getting the microphones, but passing it on to something I cared about. that was important.
And that saved me. I could make use of my fame.
By deflecting.
Yeah, and using that energy for something else. I think that helped.
Yeah, I think that's true for a lot of people. I think also there's a certain amount of guilt, too, at first. And then also with any financial success, too, with something. And I think there's guilt that needs to be dealt with also, and everyone deals with that differently. But for me, the fame, I think, and I'm happy to say early on, I realized that it wasn't a real thing.
You know, like, oh, people love you. And I would always translate that, too. It's not the kind of love that a lot of people think will cure whatever damage they have to their self-esteem, you know, from whenever before. That doesn't fix anything. And it's not real and it's potentially fleeting.
Potentially. It's definitely fleeting because everything, you know, comes and goes.
That's how the world is. And it's not about you, it's about them.
It's about them. It's also, it's about what you've presented.
Yes.
Which isn't you, necessarily.
I have to say that water that we swim in as a result of friends and cheers is remarkable, because we weren't running around with submachine guns pretending to kill people in our movies. We were making people laugh. So people see you and they smile immediately because they remember you being part of a moment that made them laugh and they're happy about that. That's not a bad thing to swim in.
It's not a bad thing. But, you know, part of the, and, you know, cheers was on for, what, 11 years, was it? My good God. Friends was on for 10.. And so, you know, there's a lot of dynamics.
I don't, dynamics in terms of your relationship with the popularity of it and the fame and the little realizations you have about it. And I was always, my way of dealing with it was to just downplay. And my family all lives here, so, okay. They keep me in check. And that was good.
And I have a child. That's the priority now. Like all this stuff. And, you know, sometimes you go a little too far with none of this is important at all. And after 9-11 happened, I was driving home from work.
And I would drive home, you know, in LA and if I'm stopped, someone in the car next to me might look over and go, ah, and wave or something. And after 9-11, and it happened a few times, driving home, someone's next to me and they just looked over and they just looked exhausted and tired and just went, ah, thank you. And it almost made me cry.
Yeah.
And that's where it hit me, oh no, we are actually providing a service, like a mental health service.
Yeah, I really agree with that.
By entertaining people, and they definitely need to not look at the news for a minute and just laugh and be part of a world where all that didn't happen. Yeah.
Let me jump in.
I almost, I gotcha, moved myself a little bit. It got to me a little.
Did it really? Yeah. Because it is true what you just said.
Because it's true, I need it too.
Yeah. Yeah, and I do react the same way to actors who you haven't met, but you have that relationship of enjoying what they did. I feel the same way. I can't wait to hug somebody who I don't know, but I want to say, oh my God, you brought me and my body such happiness.
Yeah.
Yeah. Pretty cool. Yeah. So when did you get married to Michelle?
Oh, right after, the first hiatus, after the first season.
And when did you guys have a child?
Oh, not, for, till like two, three years later.
So that was in the mix of you becoming famous and.
Yeah, thank God.
That's a grounding.
Oh yeah. No, that was great. That was really great.
Okay, I'm stalling, because what I really want to do is I really want to find out how you are digesting the life, the world we're living in right now, which is the reality of so much suffering, so much joy, so much laughter, so much, all of that. But there is this, the elephant in the room of climate change, which is very real and making things, on a huge level, potentially different. You have kids, you see all of this. Do you have a guiding principle in your life or something that you would like to do because you have a family, because you have a platform?
do you see anything, are you, sorry, do you know what I'm saying?
I do know what you're saying. It's funny, I can't express why I feel strongly about it. Not, I won't, I can't, I don't know why. But I don't feel like anyone should listen to me. regarding politics or any world events or causes.
I will support certain things that I think are important, but everything gets into politics, and that's the problem. And I stay far away from that. That's a quagmire to me. There, I just voiced an opinion, okay. But.
But it is.
And I want to stay as far away from all that as I possibly can. The coping thing is, for me, that calms me down. We've always, I mean, humanity has always been on the brink of what feels like extinction, always.
And that's not different.
Because I studied evolutionary biology, extinction is the rule, not the exception.
And so,
yeah.
Don't go, yeah, just keep going.
Our species might become extinct.
And there are tens, if not hundreds, or thousands of reasons and possibilities of how that could happen, and there'd be nothing we could do about it.
And why wouldn't it, when you think of, like you say, evolution and biology, why wouldn't we be up for grabs as well, as much as everything else?
Yeah, that's right. So, because I have that.
We're getting into the spiritual realm. Yes.
Go on. We are. Yeah. And it's funny, but that's how I felt about science and spirituality. Me too.
They're not.
No.
Opposites.
No.
Science just explains the things that we.
Right.
Can't explain, and that we call spirituality, but it.
And it's getting closer and closer and closer.
It's getting closer to being able to observe it and identify it, yeah.
Yeah, it's above my pay grade, the kind of physics that we're talking about.
Yeah, I mean, no, physics is too abstract,
complicated for me. But it's getting closer and closer. Right. And to me, that's a comfort. My go-to, my ultimate go-to.
when I am like overwhelmed or have watched way too much, even my guys, CNN and MSNBC scare the shit out of me and depress me and take me away from the joy that's right in front of my face or available. Yeah. Is, and then you die dead. So just do the best you can.
Right.
Every day, try to be a little bit better.
Yeah.
Try to be nurturing and kind, because there's a lot of suffering, so don't add to that. Try not to add to that. And politics, even though I do somehow, sometimes get involved, is not my happy place at all, because I don't feel like my opinion, I don't want to try to change your belief system or your opinion. Those are your belief systems and opinions. Right.
I do feel comfortable, because of my father being a scientist and an anthropologist, archaeologist, to say, hey, this is, I know, science learns more and more. So things do change, but science is my happy place. This is what I hear from the scientists I'm hanging around with. Do with it what you will, but I feel an urgent need to tell you that this is what science is saying. I am very comfortable with that.
Yeah.
I can testify in front of Congress and have people disagree or be angry, and I'm fine. But if I talk about your belief system, I'm over my head. Right.
Well, but the other thing about science, though, is this is what science believes is happening.
This is the explanation science provides right now.
Yeah.
And then it will change. Right. And then it'll change, and then it'll change and discount all the other things from before. So.
Which doesn't invalidate whatever science is talking about in the moment.
Right.
Because it is done from a, as carefully considered an observation as possible.
Yeah, hopefully.
Hopefully, yes.
That's where I get really cynical. There are always influences.
Yes, money. Uh-huh. Yeah.
And interests. Can you prove this for us? That would like a different answer. Yeah. So I'm just really skeptical of all of it.
And then ultimately think, all right, well, it doesn't matter. I think everyone just needs to try to be as happy as they can be and find it where they can and make do with what could be enough.
Right. Part of me is like now for me, because environment is where I hung my hat, and oceans and stuff like that. And now climate change, because, wow, you're really good. You're very disciplined. Because I was about to get sensationalized seeing my scientific beliefs, you know, so I have to be careful.
But climate change can, from an oceanographer's point of view, undo everything we're doing to make the oceans better and sustainable. Uh-huh. Just because you can't heat up the oceans to this degree without messing things up.
Right. We need to do something so that we can still live here, to make it habitable. And I go to, I think, I don't know if we can,
and the earth is just gonna shake us off.
I used to do an impression of the earth handling all the environmental problems.
Yes, exactly.
One big shake and that'll handle.
Exactly. Yeah. So I don't know. It's just getting comfortable with, yeah, I mean, this might not work for us. I get nervous when I see, you know, all these billionaires throwing money into making Mars a place to live.
Yeah, because that's a great solution. But what do you know? Oh no. I thought maybe I'd have more time here, but all right, I'll just make my peace with.
I see, AI, being a robot with my brain imprinted on some chip, is a better way to go. Is that what you're all saying?
Oops. And maybe it is. I don't know. I mean, we wouldn't know the difference.
I see you have such discipline. That's because you went to Vassar and studied.
Is this discipline or throwing in the towel? Because it's a fine line.
Yes, it is a fine line. But hope is good.
Or just, well, what can I do? Hope.
But I mean, here's my, and then we die. thing. I mean, which is a version of what you're saying, but okay, if you're gonna die, so what can you do? Well, I can be, because this is scary and a lot of people are suffering, I can be kind. I can go, hey, we're still here.
We're still alive. Let's find the joy. I can do all of those things. I can try to save the oceans. But if you do, Ted, you're not gonna get out of jail.
free card. You're not immortal all of a sudden. So who cares? Do what you can to make things and people around you a little better in your lane.
Yeah.
I'm not a scientist. I'm an actor. So in my lane, try to make things a little better.
But you've made the oceans part of your lane. Yes, I have. So fair enough.
Yes, yes. I feel comfortable saying this is what the lady behind me, the marine biologist, is saying.
Yeah.
So listen up. Yeah. Hey, you're a lady biologist, aren't you?
Not a marine biologist and not anymore.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't think I have membership in that society.
Can I ask you about time bandits? I hear you.
Oh, yeah.
Have you shot it already? Oh, yeah.
A long time ago.
Is it a season? Oh, a long time ago.
It feels like a long time. No, no, I don't mean that. I mean, it's taken a lot. There's so many special effects and things. It's taken like a year and a half.
It's over two years since we went there, is it? No, almost two years.
Wow, and is it the time bandits that we kind of remember from Monty Python?
Yeah, I think it is.
Yeah, Terry Gilliam.
Yeah, that's the movie, Terry Gilliam's Time Bandits. And Jemaine Clement and Taika Waititi and Ian Morris did this series. And it's based on the original Time Bandits. And yeah, it's fun and funny for everybody.
It's really like a good family show, or you don't have to have a family and it's still funny and fun. I'm really happy.
Potential for more episodes?
Yeah, yeah, there is. Yeah, I think there is. I mean, I don't decide.
Yeah, yeah, who's it for? What streaming service?
Apple, Apple Plus, yeah. So yeah, we'll see what happens. That was fun to be in New Zealand.
Oh, is that where you were? Mm-hmm, yeah. Because of the real countryside you could make use of?
Yeah, and Taika and Jemaine are from New Zealand. And yeah, and they just had access to, like untouched natural forests and things, it's really beautiful.
Did you move down, the family, or no? Just me for six months, yeah.
Well, he came and he visited for three months. Oh, wow. Which was great. That was heaven. And my husband visited too and then went, yeah, there's nothing for me to do here and then took off.
Do you, this is none of my business question, but do your careers take you in different directions, and that's okay or?
It's always fine, we're fine. I mean, when we got married, the understanding was, you know, we're not joined at the hip.
and we root for each other and we love each other madly, and we still do. Isn't that always like a happy surprise? Right, after, we've been together 29 years, and sometimes we look at each other and our eyes fill up with tears. and oh my God, I love you. And that's amazing.
It is amazing.
We met later, I was 45, Mary was 40.. We had both come to the conclusion from previous marriages that we were incapable of having a relationship, successful. I mean, we literally, Mary said to herself, I know that I look like I should be good at relationships. I'm not. I was on the other side going, I can mess up any relationship, clearly.
I seem to be the center point of every failed relationship that I've been in and or whatever, they weren't all failed. But I think that we learned to celebrate and appreciate because we knew the opposite. So yeah, we celebrate all the time. Ad nauseum.
Yeah, that's good. though. It is. That's good.
Yes. Yeah. I think I use the word love to mean, to be almost like a comma sometimes, the word love, which is perhaps not good, but we tell each other how much we love each other all the time.
Like a comma.
Well, meaning. sometimes I say, I love you, meaning am I okay?
Oh, oh.
Tell me you love me. I don't feel secure.
But sometimes you do. I have, like, do you still love me? Or sometimes it's like, do you like me? I get it if you don't.
And the older you get, oh my God, to be entering, I'm 76, this phase of my life.
I mean, I don't know if I could, well, I could, whatever. Do it on my own. I'm so blessed to have somebody holding my hand and saying, I'm here, I love you. Maybe a little scary at this particular moment, but it's okay.
Which leads me to, you're either in a space of love or you're in a space of fear, I think, in life. That's all there is, fear and love, really. When one, if both of us, are in the space of love, magical. If one of us is in fear and the other one's coming from love, it's okay still, because you can reach across. I know, I get it, but it's okay.
If we're both in fear, woof, that's when we have an argument or a fight or whatever, because we're both coming from fear. and what about me? Take care of me, no, take care of me, kind of thing, which is rare but does exist. But to come to this space in life of aging and diminishment, even though it's lovely and wonderful and okay, it's scary sometimes. I can't imagine going through life without Mary.
Oh, look at that, yeah.
Are we lucky?
Yes, no, that's how I feel too. Because sometimes it's, thank God for you. Thank you, thank you for marrying me.
Do you consider your, I'm sitting here feeling, God, she's so much wiser than I am.
So. No, I'm not.
Yeah, well, that's what I'm feeling.
The arrogance thing, is that it?
No, no, not arrogance. Just genuinely at ease and comfortable, and philosophical and real about evolution and biology and inevitability and all of that. But there's a relaxation to it, or am I putting that on you?
It's what I always try to be. Put out. Put out. Me too. And put in.
Yeah.
Not just put out. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, you might also be.
Imbuing you with.
With a little more than there is. But, you know, but thank you. That's really nice. That's nice of you.
Or, hey, it worked.
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